Nature's Whispers revelation - Is the bonus to AC restricted by armor's max Dex bonus?

[Secane]

Is the Nature's Whispers revelation limited by the armor's max Dex bonus?

Any links to FAQs or answers would be very helpful.

[partyrico]

The nature's whispers revelation is not limited by the armor's max Dex bonus. Compare the language of nature's whispers to that of sidestep secret of the lore mystery:

Nature's Whispers:

Nature’s Whispers (Ex): You have become so attuned to the whispers of the natural world, from the croaking of frogs to the groaning of great boulders, that your surroundings constantly keep you preternaturally aware of danger. You may add your Charisma modifier, instead of your Dexterity modifier, to your Armor Class and CMD. Any condition that would cause you to lose your Dexterity modifier to your Armor Class instead causes you to lose your Charisma modifier to your Armor Class.

Sidestep Secret:

*Sidestep Secret (Su): Your innate understanding of the universe has granted you preternatural reflexes and the uncanny ability to step out of danger at the very last second. Add your Charisma modifier (instead of your Dexterity modifier) to your Armor Class and all Reflex saving throws. Your armor’s maximum Dexterity bonus applies to your Charisma instead of your Dexterity.

As such, your armor maximum dexterity bonus doesn't apply to nature's whispers. Furthermore, sidestep secret doesn't allow for your charisma bonus to be added to CMD (and a FAQ clarified that losing your dex bonus to AC loses the charisma bonus to Sidestep Secret).

[Secane]

What I am worried is that some GM could interpret the "add your Charisma modifier, instead of your Dexterity modifier, to your Armor Class and CMD"
as the normal adding of Dex to AC, so Max Dex bonus on armor will apply.

As my character is for PFS, I fear table variation, base on how each GM sees this ability.

[ArmouredMonk13]

Since Sidestep Secret specifically states that Max Dex applies, and specific trumps general, then max dex doesn't apply. Now all you have to worry about is cheese accusation.

[blackbloodtroll]

It either sucks, and is a self crippling choice, or it's cheese, and you deserve to be sprayed with the hate bukkake.

That's how it works in minds of some.

[deuxhero]

And before anyone thinks "wearing armor" is a condition that causes you to lose your dex modifer, Pathfinder, unlike 3.5 and the infamous Iron Heart Surge, actually defines condition.

[Kazaan]

Nature's Whisper isn't about "last-minute dodging"; it's about already being out of the way long before the danger presents itself and using the "flow of the world" to guide your evasion. That's why sudden changes demanding reflex saves like unnatural magic fireballs are your bane; they trump the natural order of things. By contrast, Sidestep Secret is a more active and conscious application where you actually are dodging by a hair's breadth just by confidence and quantum actualization so you're going to be hindered if your armor is restrictive. In other words, Sidestep Secret involves contorting yourself and then willing the attack to be where you aren't while Nature's Whisper is willing all the attacks to just "go awry" as you simply walk casually into the stream of flying arrows and, despite making absolutely no effort to avoid getting hit, those eagle-eyed elven snipers suddenly look like they attended the Stormtrooper sharp-shooting training camp.

[Secane]

deuxhero wrote:

And before anyone thinks "wearing armor" is a condition that causes you to lose your dex modifer, Pathfinder, unlike 3.5 and the infamous Iron Heart Surge, actually defines condition.

What do you mean? "Wearing armor" is considered a condition, similar to cursed, stun..etc in 3.5?

[deuxhero]

No, I mean "condition" has absolutely no definition in 3.5. It's how IHS became such an infamous mess.

If you just ported Iron Heart Surge to PF directly, it would go from being crazy to merely being good and would probably work almost exactly as intended (you still run into the lesser issue of not being able to use it during half the conditions it should work for though) because "condition" actually means something.

It's one the subtle changes that almost never gets noticed.

[Secane]

@deuxhero, Just read it up. IHS is really a game breaker. Anti-magic field? *poof* ... :o

In any case, I'm now in a weird impasse, where I just can't decide if I should take Nature's Whispers or Sidestep Secret for my Paladin/Oracle.

As this is for PFS, I don't want GMs ruling against my character.

Nature's Whispers just seems SO good! Imagine a character wearing full plate and still adds ALL his Cha in place of DEX to his AC, with no cap!
As a GM myself, I find it kinda weird...

Is there any official word or clarification on this?

Edit: If I want to ask someone from Paizo... which of the ask "____" anything threads should I try?

[partyrico]

If you compare nature's whispers to sidestep secret, whispers is a Extraordinary Ability while sidestep is a Supernatural Ability. This and the different wording shows that the differences were intentional, but I'll hit the FAQ button.