Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games
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I was asked by a patron what Super Genius Games classes I would recommend to replace the existing Paizo base and core classes. The answer got lengthy, so I decided to include it here in case anyone else was interested in that idea.
*Alchemist: I don’t want to suggest a replacement for the alchemist, but I DO want to suggest a way to make the class feel very different with SGG products – specifically Advanced Options: Alchemists’ Discoveries. That’s because in addition to the standard “more discoveries” material, it includes two alternate forms of alchemy – spagyric devices and metamorphosis – that can replace mutagens, or extracts, or bombs. Spagyric devices are essentially “DaVinci Punk” age-of-enlightenment mad scientist creations, and metamorphosis is an in-and-out-of-combat set of options to turn lead into gold, or sweat into acid, or whatever.
With these options not every alchemist is a bomb-throwing Mr.Hyde wannabe, allowing the class to be much more flexible and much less predictable).
*Barbarian: The Mighty Godling (from The Genius Guide to the Godling). Like the barbarian, the mighty godling does well in a ‘hit-it-until-it-stops’ moving capacity, and has a set of expansion options (godling stuff rather than rage) allowing for expansion beyond thews and axe-swinging.
*Bard: If what you want from a bard is a spellcaster with a different flavor I suggest the Mosaic Mage (from The Genius Guide to the Mosaic Mage), Ryan Costello, Jr.’s awesome take on a caster that ties magic abilities thematically to one (or two) colors.
*Cavalier: I’ll go with the War Master (from The Genius Guide to the War Master), as a full-attack-progression class with group-augmentation abilities). It has group tactics powers, ties to the upper class, and fair fighting capacity on its own.
Also, the talented cavalier (Genius Guide to the Talented Cavalier), which (along with Genius Guide to More Cavalier Talents) can be used to create everything from knights to samurai to sheriffs to naval officers.
*Cleric: Though the end results *can* be very different, I’d recommend either the adept or eldritch godling (from The Genius Guide to Mythic Godlings). You’d have to pick the right spell lists to really fill the same niche, but the spellcaster-with-divine ties comes through nicely.
*Druid: Oddly, the Death Mage from The Genius Guide to the Death Mage. The death mage is to wizards as the druid is to clerics -- a similarly-built spellcaster with a strong thematic link to one concept. It won’t work as well if you want your druid-replacement to be a strong healer, but if you just want a spellcaster who is useful but doesn’t feel like a typical cleric or wizard, it fills the “other spellcaster” role well.
*Fighter: Armiger, from The Genius Guide to the Armiger. Oddly the armiger only has a 2/3 base attack progression, but its focus on defense (for itself AND for others, to encourage foes to attack the armiger first even if other PCs are doing more damage) does a good job for the “tank” role some players desire with fighters.
Also, the talented fighter (Genius Guide to the Talented Fighter), which can turn your fighter into any of a wide range of classic combatant-types.
*Gunslinger: The Fusilier, an alternate class or gunslinger presented in Ultimate Options: Grit and Gunslingers. It replaces Wisdom-based Grit with Charisma-based panache, and can use deeds with precision weapons (including rapiers), allowing it to be useful even in games with no firearms.
*Inquisitor: The Justicar, an alternate class of inquisitor presented in Advanced Options: Inquisitor’s Judgments. The Justicar is a full-attack-progression class with no spellcasting, but a much wider range of judgments available.
*Magus: The Archon, from The Genius Guide to the Archon. The archon has a full attack progression, and arcane spellcasting similar to the paladin and ranger’s divine spellcasting. If the magus is an even mix of fighter and wizard, the archon is more like a fighter with a dash of wizard for spice.
*Monk: The *clever* godling, from The Genius Guide to the Godling. Like a monk it’s a combatant, but has tricks up its sleeve and can be surprisingly self-sufficient.
Also, the talented monk (Genius Guide to the Talented Monk), which lets you built traditional students of eastern fighting philosophies, or more rough-and-tumble martial arts of any alignment, or even highly trained masters of the samurai fighting styles (with or without weapons, with or without armor, and so on)
*Paladin: The Templar, from The Genius Guide to the Templar. This class can be of any alignment and serves as the militant arm of a religion, rather than a beacon of justice and order, but a LG templar is going to act a lot like a paladin. Full attack progression, no spells, but prayers and granted powers in keeping with their religious background.
*Oracle: The Magister, from The Genius Guide to the Magister. A spontaneous class with some neat abilities, the magister’s main claim to fame is it can pick spells from multiple class lists (subject to some well-proven restrictions to maintain balance). In fact, almost any spellcasting class *can* be swapped out for a magister, but I think it’s most likely to scratch the same itch as the oracle for PCs.
*Ranger: The Vanguard, from The Genius Guide to the Vanguard by Marc Radle. It’s a hybrid fighting/casting class with moderate attack and 6 levels of spells, but it does very well as an in-the-door-first character, and compliments other classes well in much the same way the ranger does.
But also, the Spell-Less Ranger, ALSO by Marc Radle. It’s not a SGG book, but it does a GREAT job of turning the ranger into a class that depends on knacks and talents over spells, and I am a big fan. I even wrote #1 With a Bullet Point: 6 Spell-Less Ranger Feats to support it!
*Rogue: The Shadow Assassin, from The Genius Guide to the Shadow Assassin. A class with specialty darkness powers and a lot of stealth, that can do many of the same jobs a rogue does, even though it has an almost totally different set of abilities.
Also, the talented rogue (Genius Guide to the Talented Rogue), which lets you build everything from cold-blooded killers to criminal thugs, confidence men, and bounty hunters.
*Sorcerer: I’m not sure anything can replace a sorcerer but more sorcerers. Instead I am again going to suggest just changing how your sorcerers play without getting rid of the class. Use the Endowments from Sorcerer’s Options: Beyond Bloodlines. These are like the sorcerer version of wizards’ discoveries, but focus on the idea that magic is *innate* to sorcerers, making them even more different from preparation spellcasters.
*Summoner: If you like the link to another creature that is a big part of your class power, and some spellcasting, AND you happen to like dragons, you might like the more martial version of that connection from The Genius Guide to the Dragonrider. (My FIRST Pathfinder-compatible product!)
*Witch: The hellion, from The Genius Guide to the Hellion. The hellion is to the witch as the magus is to the wizard, along with having options different from either of its predecessors. I am very happy with this design, and it seems to be a fan favorite in play.
*Wizard: The Time Thief, from The Genius Guide to the Time Thief. Which is NOTHING like a wizard, but I haven’t mentioned yet, and it’s my favorite of all the classes I have designed as a 3pp Pathfinder writer. :) If you want a little more magic with your time control, try The Time Warden, instead.
I'd have gone the other way on the magus/archon ranger/magus. But other than that I agree with all the choices specially the shadow assassin. (Or the much hinted at future Shadow Warrior ;p)
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Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games
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I'd have gone the other way on the magus/archon ranger/magus. But other than that I agree with all the choices specially the shadow assassin. (Or the much hinted at future Shadow Warrior ;p)
Yeah, that's just as defensible. I may have different opinions based on what I knew I was designing for when I wrote the archon. :)
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Contributor; Developer, Super Genius Games
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I'm surprised you didn't suggest the Witch Hunter as a replacement for the Inquisitor.
It would do that well, too!
I also thought about the witch hunter to replace the barbarian and again for the ranger. In the end, I just liked another idea better for all those.
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Most of the classes and options above have not made it to Hero Lab yet. This has severely limited their use in my gaming group, which is sad as I own the majority of the SGG offerings. For the most part any such support has been done solely by fans.
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I was asked by a patron what Super Genius Games classes I would recommend to replace the existing Paizo base and core classes. The answer got lengthy, so I decided to include it here in case anyone else was interested in that idea.*Ranger: The Vanguard, from The Genius Guide to the Vanguard by Marc Radle. It’s a hybrid fighting/casting class with moderate attack and 6 levels of spells, but it does very well as an in-the-door-first character, and compliments other classes well in much the same way the ranger does.
But also, the Spell-Less Ranger, ALSO by Marc Radle. It’s not a SGG book, but it does a GREAT job of turning the ranger into a class that depends on knacks and talents over spells, and I am a big fan. I even wrote #1 With a Bullet Point: 6 Spell-Less Ranger Feats to support it!
Great thread Owen!
And ... thank you for the nice words! :)
Most of the classes and options above have not made it to Hero Lab yet. This has severely limited their use in my gaming group, which is sad as I own the majority of the SGG offerings. For the most part any such support has been done solely by fans.
So make them. If you can figure out the complex rules of Pathfinder, you can figure out how to make them work in HL.
hmmm an interesting thought. Replace all the base classes with ssg products.
Alchemist - This one is kind of complicated because the alchemist doesnt really have an easily defined role. But if I had to, it wouldnt be a class, it would use the alchemical archer from the Super Genius Guide to Archer Achetypes added to partial casting class. The alchemical ammunition (particularly if you expand it to different alchemical items that have come out since the product was printed) would serve a similar if not identical purpose to the bombs of the alchemist, but fit with any ranged combat style.
Barbarian - Agree that the mighty godling is probably the best choice. Its interesting, but among the myriad of SGG classes, there arent many full bab straight combat classes.
Bard - Here is another place I'd like use an archetype, this time from the super genius guide to divine archetypes, the chantry, add this to any class, and you have a bardic theme with a divine twist.
Cavalier - Definately the dragon rider here. I mean the mount is cool, but its not as cool as riding a dragon.
Cleric - Have to agree with the eldritch godling here, though really the godling is such a flexible set of classes it probably could replace most of the classes with just the 4 godlings.
Druid - This is probably where I would use the mosaic mage, instead of for the bard. It is much more the 'other' caster then the Death mage to me.
Fighter - Definately the talented fighter, its the new default in my game.
Gunslinger - Same, I like the Fusilier, it can be the typical gunslinger, but it can also fit alot of other concepts, such as a swashbuckler.
Inquisitor - Partial caster with a martial twist and interesting abilities...I'd go with the time warden myself. Though it doesnt have hte divine theme, it does have access to a fair number of traditionally divine spells, and mixes martial prowess and an expendable resource or two in with those spell much like the inquisitor does with judgements and bane. And they too are semi magical agents in a conflict with opposing forces, just in this case its over time and not religion.
Magus - I'd probably go with the Vanguard instead of the archon. The archon sort of just has both casting and combat abilities. They dont mix much in the class' abilities. Bother are potent, but it doesnt have the neat blend that the magus does. I think the vangaurd does more to blend the two, and offers an interesting addition in the form of the vanguard blast.
Monk - Even though its the easy way out, the Talented monk is one of my all time favorite products by SGG. I simply love it, and I am all kinds of itching to play a new monk character I am working on. Though I did notice (as the character is for a skull and shackles game) that the Sea Swain from fight like a pirate (and indeed all the archetypes from that product) doesnt show up in the talented line.
Another good option is to again use an archetype. This time the Yuxia from the Genius guide to martial archetypes. You can add that to any class and end up with something that is very monk like.
Paladin - Have to agree with the Templar here, or perhaps the Justicar since I didnt use it for the inquisitor.
Oracle - I would probably again use eldritch godling here. With the cleric spell list, charisma as it's casting stat, and a couple divine traits in the form of divine portfolio, it might be hard to distinquish from an oracle in fact.
Ranger - I think i'd put the time thief here, its a skilled, martial character with a magical twist. Not exactly like the ranger, but it can serve the purpose. Or you can just do what I did with my ranger in a friends game. Take the ranger itself, and then use an archetype and the Ranger Knacks to completely replace everything the ranger gets and make your own class. Or perhaps the witch hunter, if you are more concerned with the tracking, hunting aspect of the ranger.
Rogue - I like the shadow assasin here, or the time theif. Both are suitably roguey and skilled, with sneaky boosts. The shadow assasin probably fits best, but it leaves out that critical trapfinding as an option, the time theif doesnt. There is also the clever godling, which I think is a great rogue replacement as well, but like i said, the mighty, clever, adept and eldritch godlings can in fact replace all of the base classes in pathfinder on their own.
Sorceror - Here is where I use the Magister, and in fact between the eldritch godling and the magister, there isnt a lot of call for sorcerors in my games anymore.
Summoner - Not sure there really is a good analogue here, because while the dragon rider does have a big bad pet, its not quite the same relationship or feel as the summoner. I dont really think theres anything in the sgg toolset that can suite the space the summoner fills, maybe thats a good thing.
Witch - The hellion is a good choice, but I think I'd fall back on the eldritch godling again. It can have hexes, it can have the witch spell list, it just doesnt have the selection the witch does.
Wizard - This one is tough, I think I might put the archon here, even though it doesnt have full casting, it does use a spellbook, and I think is the only super genius class to do so. Or perhaps the death mage, another solid choice for an arcane magical specialist, just you know, focuse on necromancy.
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Most of the classes and options above have not made it to Hero Lab yet. This has severely limited their use in my gaming group, which is sad as I own the majority of the SGG offerings. For the most part any such support has been done solely by fans.So make them. If you can figure out the complex rules of Pathfinder, you can figure out how to make them work in HL.
Yeah, I can make them. I have done a little bit towards that goal. But there are three problems with this:
1) It is possible that I might be working on something that someone else is working on. If that is the case, one of us is wasting our time.
2) It is better to have an official version. Sometimes new updates to the HL software (or, more specifically, official data sets) will cause a clashing. This is more prevalent if multiple people are coming up with the datasets for SGG stuff.
3) It takes time that I do not have. Do I work on homework? Do I spend time with my wife and children? When I get on these boards it is mostly to give myself a break from school work. True, I could put that time towards making data sets, but then I remember #1 and #2.
I would imagine that #3 is why there is not official data set. Does someone from SGG know how to do it? Your suggestion above seems to indicate that knowledge of Pathfinder equals knowledge of Hero Lab. That is simply not an accurate assumption. However, that said, Hero Lab is not as hard as many people seem to think. You can learn a lot by finding something that has already done and is similar to what you want to do. But finding such can be hard, and again takes time.
So the next option is to pay someone to do it. This has the benefits of time (it is worth somebody's efforts) and it is also made to be the Official Version. The downside, of course, is having to pay someone. But if that is the case, why not do what many publishers have done (Paizo included), and have people pay for the data sets straight from Lone Wolf. Sure, it is not free, but we would be paying to save our own time to input it ourselves. And besides, someone was paid to enter all of the data in the first place and that cost needs to be recovered somehow.