Would this fix Powerful Sneak / Deadly Sneak?

[Ravingdork]

Powerful Sneak** (Ex): Whenever a rogue with this talent makes a sneak attack, she treats all 1s on the sneak attack damage dice as the highest possible die result (a 6 for most rogues).

Deadly Sneak** (Ex): Whenever a rogue with this talent uses the powerful sneak rogue talent, she treats all 1s and 2s on the sneak attack damage dice as the highest possible die result. A rogue must have the powerful sneak rogue talent before choosing this talent.

What do you think? Balanced?

[Claxon]

I'm not sure if it's balanced or not, but i agree as rogue talents the original version are pretty terrible.

[ryric]

Well, your powerful sneak raises the average damage per sneak attack die from 3.5 to 4.33, for a net increase of +.833 per die or +8.3 damage by 19th level.

Your deadly sneak raises it to 5, for a .67 increase over powerful sneak, or +6.7 damage at 19th.

Is it worth spending two talents for +15 damage per sneak attack at 19th level? Probably. This would probably be the best way to boost your sneak attack short of using an archetype that makes your dice d8s, which blows your revised talents (individually)out of the water.

Heck just getting rid of the attack penalty helps these talents a whole lot. It at least removes the problem of them hurting your average damage.

My one concern is that these would outshine so many other (crappy) rogue talents that these would become must-haves, or you'd have to revise the whole talent list to become less crappy.

[Pupsocket]

That's + 5/6 damage per die and + 9/6 damage per die respectively, rather than the + 1/6 and 3/6 of the original talents. I don't remember the numbers from the original mega-thread on the issue, so I won't tell you whether it's any good.

IME, though, Rogues have trouble hitting, and it's the -2 attack penalty that kills the original talents.

[Claxon]

After seeing ryric's math, they may be a little too good. Maybe just throw out the penalties to hit and I think that would be fair and balanced.

[Ravingdork]

Oh make no mistake, I have plans on changing other rogue talents too. For starters, nearly every talent that has a once per day limitation will have it outright removed.

[Dosgamer]

I've considered making each of those talents just add +1 to each sneak attack die (for a range of 2-7 and then 3-8 per die). That seems simple and to the point, rather than recounting 1's and/or 2's into something else.

[gnomersy]

Mmmm I kind of like Dos's idea personally I think I'd rather see the sneak attack itself be more reliable so I'd go with

"When a Rogue with this talent Sneak Attacks, add +1 to hit increasing by 1 every 3 levels after."

Upgraded version "When a Rogue with this talent sneak attacks treat him as though he had full BAB for all purposes (including number of attacks per round on a full attack)"

Not quite as good on a skirmishing Rogue maybe but it would make their full attacks scarier. Then again no reason you can't run both ideas in your game.

[Claxon]

gnomersy wrote:

Mmmm I kind of like Dos's idea personally I think I'd rather see the sneak attack itself be more reliable so I'd go with

"When a Rogue with this talent Sneak Attacks, add +1 to hit increasing by 1 every 3 levels after."

Upgraded version "When a Rogue with this talent sneak attacks treat him as though he had full BAB for all purposes (including number of attacks per round on a full attack)"

Not quite as good on a skirmishing Rogue maybe but it would make their full attacks scarier. Then again no reason you can't run both ideas in your game.

Both of your suggestions are wayyyyyyyyyyyyy to good, IMO.

You'd effectively be giving him full BAB progression and a +6 to hit just by taking the two rogue talents. That's a +11 swing versus what the Rogue normally works with. Wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy to goood.

Oh and he get's another attack.

[Kalshane]

I use Dosgamer's version in my games.

I also have another talent similar to gnomersy's proposal, that gives a +1 to hit per 3 rogue levels whenever the opponent is denied their Dexterity bonus (this also gives a slight boost to the rogue against opponents that are immune to sneak attacks).

[DrDeth]

Ravingdork wrote:

Oh make no mistake, I have plans on changing other rogue talents too. For starters, nearly every talent that has a once per day limitation will have it outright removed.

Right, esp those which keep a rogue alive. Most such talents need to be liek Wizard abilities, ie 3 X + (stat) bonus per day. Or at the very least 3X per day.

[Mudfoot]

I do the same as Dosgamer. There is no -2 attack roll penalty.

[Ravingdork]

I agree wholeheartedly DrDeth.

Every time I read them and see that limitation I automatically ask "why?" It's not like rogues needed their power balance curbed.

[gnomersy]

Claxon wrote:

gnomersy wrote:

Mmmm I kind of like Dos's idea personally I think I'd rather see the sneak attack itself be more reliable so I'd go with

"When a Rogue with this talent Sneak Attacks, add +1 to hit increasing by 1 every 3 levels after."

Upgraded version "When a Rogue with this talent sneak attacks treat him as though he had full BAB for all purposes (including number of attacks per round on a full attack)"

Not quite as good on a skirmishing Rogue maybe but it would make their full attacks scarier. Then again no reason you can't run both ideas in your game.

Both of your suggestions are wayyyyyyyyyyyyy to good, IMO.

You'd effectively be giving him full BAB progression and a +6 to hit just by taking the two rogue talents. That's a +11 swing versus what the Rogue normally works with. Wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy to goood.

Oh and he get's another attack.

I like how you neglect to mention that this "way too good power spike" is equivalent to a single spell that clerics get at level one for 90% of most games and the upgraded version was supposed to be a replacement for the original although I didn't make that completely clear so it's a total of +6 or whatever not +11.