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I am personally excited for the Advanced Class Guide, mainly to see how the Swashbuckler is designed.
I am interested in building a Zorro-type character that fights in melee with a rapier, and is charming to boot. There are several current options that allow for this type of character.
First, there is the rogue archetype Swashbuckler. But it seems rather underwhelming to me, My own rogue character is built to do two-weapon fighting with twin shortswords, mainly because rogues are too feat-starved to make TWF work otherwise.
Another approach is through the bard archetype Arcane Duelist. This has great potential, as you get to be a spellcaster, skill monkey, and a ham fighter at the same time.
Another route I've considered is going fighter or ranger (heck maybe even paladin) for 6-7 levels and then jumping into the Duelist prestige class.
I guess each option has strengths and weaknesses. What route would allow for the most effective build if I mainly want a character to fight in melee with a rapier and lighter armor?
Maybe this type of build is suicidal (too low AC, etc.) I'm just hoping for some feedback, and perhaps some ideas for feat progression, etc. Thanks!
I've toyed with the idea of a fighter swashbuckler, and I'd say a few of the archetypes make it work quite well. Skill points are an issue, but not an insurmountable one.
As for low AC... I've toyed with an swordlord fighter/duelist build, and AC can be quite high. With seven levels of swordlord and some feats (crane style and dueling mastery), you get:
- untyped AC bonuses when making a full attack;
- dodge AC bonuses and attack penalty reductions fighting defensively;
- Further AC bonuses and attack penalty reductions when fighting defensively from Crane Style (not sure if the penalty reductions stack, if yes the penalty is 0)
- shield AC bonus from dueling mastery : +2 if your off hand is free, +1 if you are using the sword two-handed (note the feat allows you to use the dueling sword for the duelist PrC features)
If you go for a duelist, you get further bonuses, and it can become quite fun - and then comes Crane Wing that allows you to pretty much ignore one attack that hits you every turn. What I am actually worried about in this build is offense: swordlords only get weapon training at level 9, and you put in a lot of feats towards your defense. Still, nothing says you can't use your sword two-handed when you attack and then switch to one-handed when you need to defend - should be a free action. Also, you are bound to a certain type of weapon that is not technically a rapier.
If you are set on a rapier, check out the free hand fighter. Note that you may also have some issues with damage, though, and I'm not sure you can use a rapier two-handed.A few other archetypes, such as the mobile fighter or even lore warden, also work well. Multiclassing if that suits your fancy.
BTW, if you think of making it a magical duelist, do give the magus and the psychic warrior a look. Psionics gets a very bad rep from its earlier incarnations, but imo worked fairly well in 3.5 and after, and PWs were a very solid and functional class.. You can find the mechanics on d20pfsrd.
My personal favorite is a Freebooter Ranger (for that challenge mechanic feel; very duelist) and the free power attack of the two handed combat style. (Nothing says you must use the weapon two handed).
Freebooter Ranger 6 20 point buy
STR 10
DEX 16 (18)
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 12
CHA 11
1 Finesse
1 Dodge
R2) Power Attack
3 Dervish Dance
5 Mobility
(R6) Cleave?
Then Duelist X.
You get a move action +2 to hit and damage to enemy of choice, DEX to damage with scimitar, Power Attack with said scimitar, and all your Duelist requirements. Dangerously Curious trait and an investment into UMD will net you a wand of shield, so you still get a shield bonus regardless of your empty off-hand.
your damage should be competent, though not top tier; theoretically your mobility should help, UMD does a lot too. Take Favored Terrain: Urban.
I feel it does a lot for swashbuckler type build; I feel this is as good as it gets, keeping it fairly simple. I mean, you could go down the whole style feat rabbit hole... I feel it lacks thematically.
How about a pirate order of the cockatrice huntmaster cavalier with a nasty parrot companion? free dazzling display, bonus to hit demoralized opponents, bonus damage when solo or when challenging.
Urban barbarian for a swashy who fights on all sides? Rage to boost str and dex, guarded stance to boost ac, intimidate as move action
Evangelist cleric of Cayden Callean! Travel domain, bardic performance, buff the heck out of yourself and go to town
STR 10
...
R2) Power Attack
Heh, and I was just about to tell you it doesn't work that way. Ranger, right? Still, it sounds like a problem early on.
In case that you have the type of GM who would consider a homebrewed class with an open mind (not very likely, but the possibility exists), here's the Swashbuckler I came up with.
I put a lot of soul into it, so it kinda bothers me now that an official version will supersede it in short order, but I'm sure Paizo will do a good job on their own. :p
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In case that you have the type of GM who would consider a homebrewed class with an open mind (not very likely, but the possibility exists), here's the Swashbuckler I came up with.
I put a lot of soul into it, so it kinda bothers me now that an official version will supersede it in short order, but I'm sure Paizo will do a good job on their own. :p
Sweet.
I like daring strike but, as finesse applies to all light weapons, maybe you could simplify the language down to 'any finesse weapon'? Or am I missing something?
Heart Strike is a fitting capstone as well. It would be interesting to see how that played with mythic.
I just use the terminology normally used by other feats or abilities which substitute strength for another attribute in terms of damage. The deal with with specifically mentioning "main-hand weapons" is to prevent people from trying to claim that the additional damage would apply as well to off-hand weapons, while still making it possible to use two-handed weapons like a spiked chain or the elven court blade.
I like Deception! and I use Athletics as well! but I never liked Use Rope...
I use Dexterity combined with Intelligence checks. CMB I can understand as I have dealt with tying someone up. In the struggle you are only focused on restraining them as fast as possible and as securely as possible. You can always change the knot to a more suitable one later on.
I am personally excited for the Advanced Class Guide, mainly to see how the Swashbuckler is designed.
I am interested in building a Zorro-type character that fights in melee with a rapier, and is charming to boot. There are several current options that allow for this type of character.
Maybe this type of build is suicidal (too low AC, etc.) I'm just hoping for some feedback, and perhaps some ideas for feat progression, etc. Thanks!
Magus using Arcane Mark'd Spell Combat/Spell Strike. You get 2 attacks at low levels.
Save the spells for buffs like feather fall, and other heroic zerro-like stuff.
I've toyed with the idea of a fighter swashbuckler, and I'd say a few of the archetypes make it work quite well. Skill points are an issue, but not an insurmountable one.
As for low AC... I've toyed with an swordlord fighter/duelist build, and AC can be quite high. With seven levels of swordlord and some feats (crane style and dueling mastery), you get:
- untyped AC bonuses when making a full attack;
- dodge AC bonuses and attack penalty reductions fighting defensively;
- Further AC bonuses and attack penalty reductions when fighting defensively from Crane Style (not sure if the penalty reductions stack, if yes the penalty is 0)
- shield AC bonus from dueling mastery : +2 if your off hand is free, +1 if you are using the sword two-handed (note the feat allows you to use the dueling sword for the duelist PrC features)If you go for a duelist, you get further bonuses, and it can become quite fun - and then comes Crane Wing that allows you to pretty much ignore one attack that hits you every turn. What I am actually worried about in this build is offense: swordlords only get weapon training at level 9, and you put in a lot of feats towards your defense. Still, nothing says you can't use your sword two-handed when you attack and then switch to one-handed when you need to defend - should be a free action. Also, you are bound to a certain type of weapon that is not technically a rapier.
If you are set on a rapier, check out the free hand fighter. Note that you may also have some issues with damage, though, and I'm not sure you can use a rapier two-handed.A few other archetypes, such as the mobile fighter or even lore warden, also work well. Multiclassing if that suits your fancy.
BTW, if you think of making it a magical duelist, do give the magus and the psychic warrior a look. Psionics gets a very bad rep from its earlier incarnations, but imo worked fairly well in 3.5 and after, and PWs were a very solid and functional class.. You can find the mechanics on d20pfsrd.
Dont forget the Swordlord PrC, one level of it gets you "Agile" for all Dueling Swords, but only when using that weapon and nothing else(not even unarmed strikes).
In the event that you are into 3rd party material, super genius games has their ultimate options for gunslingers that includes and alternate class that works without using guns and uses finesse weapons.
Heh, and I was just about to tell you it doesn't work that way. Ranger, right? Still, it sounds like a problem early on.
STR 10
...
R2) Power Attack
Still better than pretty much any other Finesse build you care to name. Hence the difficultly actually making a decent Finesse build. best to start at level 3, admittedly.
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Thanks everyone! These are all some pretty great ideas! I am interested in making at least one character that's Pathfinder Society legal, so I may have to hold off on those custom rules for awhile.
Which source is the Freebooter Ranger in? I checked the PRD, looking in the APG and UC, but didn't see it listed.
I also considered using the Free Hand Fighter archetype. Has anyone tried out that build?
PLayers Companion: Pirates of the Inner Sea.