So, I've got this monster race, a Janni, and am adding a class level to it. Given its type as an outsider, does its type override BAB progression? Do the number of skill points stack? I did not add another d10 for the class level as it has its own hit die. But, if that doesn't add together then how do the others work together?
I've essentially got myself in a loop so something's wrong with my thinking or I'm over analyzing things. Would someone clear the fog, please?
I believe racial HD give skills and BAB based on type progression. When you advance a creature by PC class levels you just add those values to the base creatures stats as indicated by racial HD.
So you get racial progression for racial hit die.
You get class progression for class hit die.
This is the case in spite of the Outsider type specifying that BAB is equal to total HD?
This is the case in spite of the Outsider type specifying that BAB is equal to total HD?
Yes, because that is really referring only to racial hit dice, at least as far as I'm aware.
It's basically saying a 20HD outsider should have a BAB of 20. While a 10hd outsider with 10 levels of wizard should have a BAB of 15.
Cool! Mucho gracias.
Along the same line, but going in the other direction, could you have a Creature who's half monster (Half-Dragon/Celestial/Demon/Ogre/Fey/ETC) and chose to advance in Hit Dice like a multi-class character? I wonder this because the Monster's Racial Type is treated for all intents and purposes as a class with it's own BAB, Save, Skill, HP and Ability progression.
Separate the Race from the Class.
Build it like this:
First, start with the base Racial stats. Second, add any racial advancements, if any, as per the guidelines for advancing that particular creature. Lastly, add the class abilities and skills and calculated statistics.
If, later, you want to add more racial advancements, if the GM allows, then do it like I just said, refigure the base race, then the newly improved racial advancements, and then add in the class stuff.
Don't try to mix them, and especially don't try to blend some racial stuff and some class stuff at the same time (for the same HD/Level). Just do it one step at a time.
Think of it like starting with a dwarf fighter. You begin with the dwarf racial stuff (darkvision, bonus saves, etc.). Then you add fighter levels. If he later adds a wizard level, you don't blend that new wizard level with fighter skills or fighter d10 HP - you ONLY add wizard stuff. If he then adds a level of fighter again, you ONLY add fighter stuff. Etc. And if you could somehow add more dwarf stuff later, you wouldn't blend that with the fighter or the wizard stuff - it's all kept separate.
Fair enough, and a good explanation of it, thank you. I was more interested though in weather there was precedent for this type of advancement, or if RAW once you add a class to a monster you were not allowed back into that "Monster Class".
I can't think of any such rule or precedent.
Theoretically, most monster advancement falls into one of two categories:
a) Monster gets bigger/meaner/tougher - represented by "advancement"
b) Monster learns new stuff - represented by class levels
We could assume that the monster was just born bigger/meaner/tougher than the usual ones. Maybe he's a mutant. Maybe his grandfather was some other bigger creature and the creature we're talking about is really a half-breed (or quarter-breed) of some kind, even if he doesn't exactly look like one. Whatever. Under this assumption, it makes no sense to have a middle-aged "advanced ogre" to suddenly start growing again - instead, we have a bigger/meaner/tougher "advanced ogre", born that way (maybe it's 1/4 giant), and once he's full-grown, that's as big/mean/tough as he's ever going to get.
If we assume the rationalization for an "advanced" monster is that it gets bigger somehow, or meaner somehow, but not necessarily an accident of birth, or maybe he's just not quite finished growing, then anything is possible. Maybe we have a middle-aged ogre with several levels of barbarian, but this ogre is living in a cave with a polluted pool of water that has a curious side effect that as he drinks it, over many months, he actually grows bigger/meaner/tougher. Now there is no reason at all to disallow the ogre from gaining more HD and becoming an "advanced ogre", even after he has already learned levels in barbarian.
Or, maybe our ogre barbarian is really a mixed-breed (1/4 giant, his grandfather was a stone giant) but he's not quite full-grown - he's the normal size and HD and stats of an ogre, plus a few levels of barbarian, but then over the next few years he finishes growing, gaining a few more racial HD (and commensurate abilities) as his giant-side "advances" him with racial HD.
And, no reason why, over time, he couldn't gain a few more barbarian levels AND a few more racial HD as he continues growing (weird pool or giant grandfather) at the same time as he continues getting XP and leveling up his barbarian class.
Again, I have no rules for this, but it makes sense to me that it should be possible, given the right justification.
Cool, that's a great example with the Ogre. I was thinking mixed breeds myself, and seeing as some of the Templates say that they are "Acquired" even thought he descriptions don't hold that as the best explanation... I was looking at the more pernicious genes and thinking about a Dragon Sorc who advances to LV5, jumps into the Dragon Disciple till 15 and then "Acquires" the Half-Dragon template as the manifestation of the Dragon Genes replacing his human/elf/gnome/whatever racial genes. Then, because the Template changes his Racial Type to Dragon, It's kind of like Multi-classing. He then advances as a Dragon for the remainder of his career, becoming less and less like his base race.
Sort of a Genetic version of District 9.
EDIT: I wasn't really thinking for a Player, but rather as a NPC that grew along with the story the PC's are in. Could be interesting for them to witness the change.