Is there a spell like this? (also Villian creation ideas an rules questions)

[Dakkonn]

I need to know if there is a spell that gives off a false alignment for detect spells that can be cast on an unfriendly target. I basically want to have someone that isn't evil detect as evil so I can trick the paladin in the party into killing him :)

So I am at the point in my campaign that I feel my group needs a villain to face. To that end I started writing up a few ideas an I want to create a guy that enjoys causing chaos/pain but in an intelligent way (not just a chaotic berserker but more of a "Joker" type). Meaning he loves making people do things like kill each other/trick them into doing things they would never do normally.

To this end I am thinking of a future encounter where said villain has helped some evil forces construct a portal to darker plains of existence but offers a choice to the Paladin such as "If you kill that child I'll stop the portal from opening an killing everyone else" He would in fact turn on his "allies" an keep his word cause it would be just as fun tormenting the paladin.

This is still a rough draft of this character but the general idea is he would kill his own "allies" if it meant he could have more "fun".

Also I was thinking of having him use Words of Power rather than traditional spell casting for some flavor. However the system is a little confusing to me. Far as I can tell it allows for custom spell creation (to an extent) at the cost of spells of the same level from a normal caster are more powerful at the same level.

(example is a standard fireball is a third level 10d6 20 foot burst at a range of 100+10 per level but a word caster would use burst fire blast it would only be 10d6 10 foot burst at a range of 25+5/2 levels an to make it a 20 foot burst range of 100 feet would turn it into a level 5 spell)

[Vivianne Laflamme]

Misdirection

[Dakkonn]

Vivianne Laflamme wrote:

Misdirection

LOL wow I even read that spell before that post. Thank you :)

[David_Bross]

Keep in mind torturing players doesn't make them particularly inclined to play. Paladins can lose powers for doing things you're mentioning.

[I Hate Nickelback]

Angle skin armor gives of a good aura and masks an evil one.

[nate lange]

murdering an unarmed child of any alignment will get a paladin stripped of his powers. you don't need a spell that makes the child detect as evil- you need a spell that makes the paladin's player a drooling moron with no concept of how to be a good guy.

edit: dominate person plus alter self could make a child appear to be an adult and force it to try to attack the paladin, combine that with misdirection to seem evil and you have an encounter that might not get the pally's powers stripped but should leave him with terrible feelings of guilt...

[VRMH]

Dakkonn wrote:

I basically want to have someone that isn't evil detect as evil

A simple casting of Infernal Healing could do the trick too, though it won't last long.

Quote:

"If you kill that child I'll stop the portal from opening an killing everyone else"

Please, please, please be careful with that - bad GMs use that trick as a auto-paladin-falling-button. Whatever you have planned for the Paladin PC, make sure the player has fun.

Quote:

I was thinking of having him use Words of Power rather than traditional spell casting for some flavor.

That would work, but:

1. it's more work for you, and
2. the players might never even notice.

[Dakkonn]

nate lange wrote:

murdering an unarmed child of any alignment will get a paladin stripped of his powers. you don't need a spell that makes the child detect as evil- you need a spell that makes the paladin's player a drooling moron with no concept of how to be a good guy.

edit: dominate person plus alter self could make a child appear to be an adult and force it to try to attack the paladin, combine that with misdirection to seem evil and you have an encounter that might not get the pally's powers stripped but should leave him with terrible feelings of guilt...

No no :P I wasn't going to force him I was just going to give him a choice of saving many lives vs one. If he was conflicted I was thinking about using a spell to set up something like "If you conflicted would it help if that kid was in fact evil? go ahead cast your holy gaze app on him an you will see for yourself"

Or something like that this is still an extreme rough idea but its something I just want to toy around with an maybe full out. End of the day I am not trying to torment the players but create role playing options weather the player decides to kill the kid an save the many he will then have to go thru a either a redemption quest or heck he might just start down a darker path. Maybe he will spare him an fight the evil to come standing true to his convictions of his Goddess. Either way its nothing but a tool to facilitate role playing options for him and me.

[Lord Pendragon]

Dakkonn wrote:

I wasn't going to force him I was just going to give him a choice of saving many lives vs one.

As a long-time paladin player with a great DM, I would not be afraid of this scenario. True paladins know that the ends never justify the means. It's never okay to kill the innocent, no matter what the circumstances. So the choice is actually really easy.

The hard part would be after the event, when the village/town/city is in cinders, and the general population finds out he could have saved them by killing the kid. Lot of fallout from doing the right thing, sometimes.

[Dakkonn]

VRMH wrote:

Dakkonn wrote:

I basically want to have someone that isn't evil detect as evil

A simple casting of Infernal Healing could do the trick too, though it won't last long.

Quote:

"If you kill that child I'll stop the portal from opening an killing everyone else"

Please, please, please be careful with that - bad GMs use that trick as a auto-paladin-falling-button. Whatever you have planned for the Paladin PC, make sure the player has fun.

Thank you. I do know its a tricky thing to do correct an often an abused one at that. I don't intend for it to be an auto fall tho. I just want it to be an opportunity for roleplaying. Weather he in fact holds to his beliefs an fights what ever may come or if he decides its "for the greater good" then ends up going on a quest for redemption we will see but at the moment I am just kicking around the idea an how it might work but if it feels like I am giving them to narrow of options (I E forcing them into something) I'll just forget it.

Quote:

I was thinking of having him use Words of Power rather than traditional spell casting for some flavor.

That would work, but:

1. it's more work for you, and
2. the players might never even notice.

Yeah I know. But I like to force myself to do things that I am not 100% comfortable with so I can grow as a GM. An yeah they may not notice but there a so many story lines and little things that most groups either don't notice or burn thru so fast that if I let things like the party not noticing the work I put into something bother me I would never get anything done :)

[Ecaterina Ducaird]

It's funny, you know.

I wonder how often pallys actually rely on their holy sight because of the number of ways to get around it, or whether that topic is even touched on in pally school.

"So yeah... we've got this holy sight thing that will tell if someone is evil. But only if they're over a certain number of HD or are a cleric / anti-paladin or an outsider. And there's a few magic items around that any even remotely subtle guy will have, or some not uncommon spells... and god help you (ha ha) if your actually going against a Master Spy because those guys are so hardcore they'll even trick a Holy Smite into thinking they're not evil... So by the time it becomes useful, USUALLY, it'll be readily counter-able by anyone who is prepared." Or whether they just sweep that under the rug there comments to the general public of "Infallible god vision said he was evil. Nothing to see here but the dead body of an evil doer... brother Jeeves, you prepped atonement this morning right?"

My favourite 3.5 Rogue / Assassin kept teasing our pally wanna-be by changing her alignment with magic fairly regularly. She'd detect as evil one day, but not the next. It proved an educational experience for him in terms of "Magic voices whispering in your head if someone is evil or not shouldn't always be trusted."

[Lord Pendragon]

It all comes down to whether the pally has made int a dump stat, really. Relatively smart paladins recognize that Detect Evil is a tool, nothing more. It can help point the paladin in the direction of possible trouble, but it is neither infallible nor a license to kill.