CR of NPCs

[aaronpark]

I am really confused by the rules for NPCs in a combat.

Here is where I am confused.

I am going to have a party of 6, 10th level PCs. This would put their APL at 10+1=11.

Now for an NPC with a regular class, the CR is level-1.
I want them to fight a high level bard and a few Rogues. Does this mean that if I have a 12th level bard, I shouldn't have any other people to fight. I feel like 6 10th level people should be able to take him on pretty easily or am I wrong?

[Ipslore the Red]

You are correct. The CR rules are designed with 4 people in mind. Having 6 makes things significantly easier for them.

I suggest you look at this guide's EXP chart and use it to buy more minions with whatever's left over.

And remember, the action economy counts, even if it's purportedly the appropriate CR. One against six dies.

[Orfamay Quest]

They should. Players are supposed to win, which means that a level appropriate challenge is not a deadly threat.

[aaronpark]

Ok, thanks. This is my first campaign that I'm running and the rules are very confusing about this. I think as they are written, it would be 6 against 1 for an "average" encounter. thank you for the linking me to that guide Ipslore. That looks like it will help tremendously.

[aaronpark]

Ok, I think I got it. So for this encounter where I have 6, 10th level PCs, it would be about a CR+1 fight to go against 1 12th level bard and 3 6th level minions.

Math:
Cr+1 for each 10th level character = 3200
3200 * 6 party members = 19200
CR for 1 12th level bard is 12-1 =11
XP for a cr 11 is 12800
19200-12800 = 6400
6400/2400 (for each 6th level minion) = 2.667 minions
round up to 3.

Final fight
1 12th level "Boss"
3 6th level "Minions"

vs

6 10th level "Heroes"

[Claxon]

You shouldn't run a one versus 6 combat and expect it to be even the slightest challenge.

You're better off having a 10th level bard and several minions.

[Akerlof]

aaronpark wrote:

Ok, I think I got it. So for this encounter where I have 6, 10th level PCs, it would be about a CR+1 fight to go against 1 12th level bard and 3 6th level minions.

Math:
Cr+1 for each 10th level character = 3200
3200 * 6 party members = 19200
CR for 1 12th level bard is 12-1 =11
XP for a cr 11 is 12800
19200-12800 = 6400
6400/2400 (for each 6th level minion) = 2.667 minions
round up to 3.

Final fight
1 12th level "Boss"
3 6th level "Minions"

vs

6 10th level "Heroes"

Also remember that CR = APL is considered an average fight. CR = APL+2 is a hard fight. So if your group works out to the equivalent of APL 11, you're going to be looking at a minimum CR of 13 to challenge them.

So you're looking at 25,600 - 12,800 for the CR 11 bad guy = 12,800 left over. 3 minions would be 4,266xp each, so you could do 3 level 8 minions and be in the right area.

3 level 8s and a level 12 sounds like a more reasonable challenge to 6 level 10s. Level 6's would hardly be a speedbump, your party could ignore them and burn down the level 12 in a round or so. Level 8s might be a bit more of a challenge, the party is still almost certain to win, but it might be a better challenge. Especially if you don't make the minions all martials. Say a level 8 Barbarian, level 8 Summoner and a level 8 Cleric: 1 guy that's a real threat if he can get up close and personal, one person who can provide battlefield control through clutter, and one person to buff and defend the bad group. That might make a decent support group for a bard.

Think about what your party is capable of, and keep that in mind when you're creating the encounter. You don't need to directly counter them, just don't play to their strengths.

[Mister Fluffykins]

You also have to bare in mind that the rules presume you're using a 15-point buy (the game is balanced around that). If you're not using a 15-point buy, increase the APL by 1. If your party has a WBL thats significantly higher than what they should have, increase APL by another 1.

Then, use the new encounter level to throw in some more minions. If you don't want to flood them with too much EXP, boost the CR of the encounter artificially by giving the NPCs favorable terrain (a few low walls for cover, high ground, etc).

Experiment with new ways of 'balancing' encounters to make them more difficult/interesting one aspect of the challenge at a time. You can quickly overwhelm a party who isn't prepared for these sorts of things by introducing several new aspects of gameplay all at once - and that might not make for the funnest time.

[Claxon]

I would honestly suggest that a fight isn't a real challenge until CR+4.

And that until CR+5 the odds don't begin to be stacked against the PCs.

[Ipslore the Red]

Claxon wrote:

I would honestly suggest that a fight isn't a real challenge until CR+4.

And that until CR+5 the odds don't begin to be stacked against the PCs.

That's the design. CR+4 is meant to be 50/50 odds for a 4-PC party.

[Orfamay Quest]

Remember that fights don't happen in isolation. A single encounter isn't usually the end of the adventure or even the end of the day. A CR+2 fight after a long string of CR+0 fights is very challenging. People are hurt, spells are depleted, uses per day have been used...

If the bard just wanders up and says "let's fight" he'll lose. But if he's at the end of a long stretch of Indiana Jones snake pits and Scooby-Doo slides he is a much more serious issue.