A certain half-fiend lich necromancer (started with Grand Necromancer page 193 NPC Codex) wants to know what happens if you cast animate dead, create undead, create greater undead, etc. on dead devils.
Note: they are in Hell, so no going back to their home plane after "death".
Okay, let's see:
1) Animate Dead: they become a zombie or skeleton with HD based on their own before they became undead, up to the noted limit for skeletons. (The chart stops, but there is no noted limit for zombies.)
2) Create Undead (or greater variants): it allows you to create the specific undead kinds it says you can, based off of your caster level and the specific spells you have access to, as noted in the linked description.
So... yeah, that's about it.
Let me more specific: which kinds well let the devils keep most of their qualities (i.e. defenses, SPA, resistances, special attacks, etc.)??
I believe that is setting specific. The physiology of devils (and other outsiders) isn't covered in the rules to my knowledge. But there is also no limit on the spells in regard to type, so you could create skeletons(if we decide they have bones) and zombies of outsiders.
And the devils going back to Hell when killed is also a setting-defined trait - which I don't believe is true for Golarion.
I don't allow them to be turned into undead as normal(unless they have native subtype), but I do allow create greater undead to 'raise' them(and any other creature) as an undead simulacrum-like abomination - and with outsiders having body and soul in one, and they are free-willed with their memories/personality intact.
EDIT: the specific thing: By RAW I would say: None of them.
I believe that is setting specific. The physiology of devils (and other outsiders) isn't covered in the rules to my knowledge. But there is also no limit on the spells in regard to type, so you could create skeletons(if we decide they have bones) and zombies of outsiders.
And the devils going back to Hell when killed is also a setting-defined trait - which I don't believe is true for Golarion.
I don't allow them to be turned into undead as normal(unless they have native subtype), but I do allow create greater undead to 'raise' them(and any other creature) as an undead simulacrum-like abomination - and with outsiders having body and soul in one, and they are free-willed with their memories/personality intact.
EDIT: the spicific thing: By RAW I would say: None of them.
So, how would you handle that in-game?
And I'm sure some do. Like, skeletal champions still retain fighter levels. Is that true for other monsters?| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would argue that any means of creating undead involves trapping or binding the soul of the deceased (which is why this process prevents all kinds of resurrection) but since devils have no souls (they are not living, per se, but rather they are the embodied stuff of pure Lawful-Evilness), they cannot be made into undead.
But that's just my take and I cannot support that with RAW.
As far as RAW goes, some kinds of undead have templates. You apply the template to the base creature. For example, Zombie is just a template that applies to the base creature (whatever Devil you're applying it to). All you need is a physical body (so a zombie fire elemental would be impossible, but not necessarily a zombie Erinyes). So take the base creature and apply the template. Done. Easy Peasy.
Many other kinds of undead are not templates at all. For example, a wraith is always a wraith - if you make a wraith out of a halfling, a human, a hill giant, or a devil, you still get a wraith. That's even easier than the template undead because you don't have to modify stat blocks.
Off the top of my head I cannot think of a third way to do it. You either template-ify the original devil creature or you simply create a specific undead that doesn't care what the original devil creature used to be.
Although, there could be good visual effects (I imagine an Pit Fiend wraith is very much more imposing than a gnome wraith) and maybe some interesting RP angles as well, if the new undead form retains memories of the original devil (I bet a Succubus Banshee would have some amazing stories to tell!)
(Yes, I know, that last one is a demon, but what a combo...)
I would argue that any means of creating undead involves trapping or binding the soul of the deceased (which is why this process prevents all kinds of resurrection) but since devils have no souls (they are not living, per se, but rather they are the embodied stuff of pure Lawful-Evilness), they cannot be made into undead.
But that's just my take and I cannot support that with RAW.
As far as RAW goes, some kinds of undead have templates. You apply the template to the base creature. For example, Zombie is just a template that applies to the base creature (whatever Devil you're applying it to). All you need is a physical body (so a zombie fire elemental would be impossible, but not necessarily a zombie Erinyes). So take the base creature and apply the template. Done. Easy Peasy.
Many other kinds of undead are not templates at all. For example, a wraith is always a wraith - if you make a wraith out of a halfling, a human, a hill giant, or a devil, you still get a wraith. That's even easier than the template undead because you don't have to modify stat blocks.
Off the top of my head I cannot think of a third way to do it. You either template-ify the original devil creature or you simply create a specific undead that doesn't care what the original devil creature used to be.
Although, there could be good visual effects (I imagine an Pit Fiend wraith is very much more imposing than a gnome wraith) and maybe some interesting RP angles as well, if the new undead form retains memories of the original devil (I bet a Succubus Banshee would have some amazing stories to tell!)
(Yes, I know, that last one is a demon, but what a combo...)
It it's a soul thing, should it matter if they have one?
I don't think it actually says it uses their soul, and if you destroy the creature, you can revive it again.I do believe devil/undead would be coo-AWESOME!!!!!
So, how would you handle that in-game?
And I'm sure some do. Like, skeletal champions still retain fighter levels. Is that true for other monsters?
Depends:
The undead simulacrum usually is a half HD copy, no con. Racial HD become half undead HD, class HD are halved. SQ with numerical qualities are halved(DC reduced by 2 to 8). Reduce caster-level for both spells and spell-like abilities by half. Half skill points and feats. With their soul attached to the form - for awesomeness.But combined with wish or similar and some story and some money, I would allow a "perfect" undead copy, racial HD becomes undead HD, no con score.
----
Yes, skeletal champion retains class levels, but loses racial HD and thereby racial qualities(I would say), and anything that is based on the "flesh". For a devil that would include spell-like abilities, senses, supernatural abilities, spellcasting... most things.
I kind of go by what would be fun and interesting. But with outsiders I would insist on them keeping their personality because their form is their soul. Sort of.
So, how would you handle that in-game?
And I'm sure some do. Like, skeletal champions still retain fighter levels. Is that true for other monsters?Depends:
The undead simulacrum usually is a half HD copy, no con. Racial HD become half undead HD, class HD are halved. SQ with numerical qualities are halved(DC reduced by 2 to 8). Reduce caster-level for both spells and spell-like abilities by half. Half skill points and feats. With their soul attached to the form - for awesomeness.But combined with wish or similar and some story and some money, I would allow a "perfect" undead copy, racial HD becomes undead HD, no con score.
----
Yes, skeletal champion retains class levels, but loses racial HD and thereby racial qualities(I would say), and anything that is based on the "flesh". For a devil that would include spell-like abilities, senses, supernatural abilities, spellcasting... most things.I kind of go by what would be fun and interesting. But with outsiders I would insist on them keeping their personality because their form is their soul. Sort of.
I was looking at a spontaneous thing.
His dad was a devil, and left him devil 'minions"."If they die, can he raise them?" kinda thing.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I suggest looking at classic horrors revisited and classic undead revisited. There are variant undad for many of the common undead that would possibly be applicable.
However. Many devils would make great skeletons. But anything like I suggested above with the variant undead would probably require creat greater undead.
I was looking at a spontaneous thing.
His dad was a devil, and left him devil 'minions".
"If they die, can he raise them?" kinda thing.
Oh... :)
'Raise' or 'raise as undead', because outsiders can be raised from the dead with wish, miracle and true resurrection, as stated in the outsider description.
But 'raised as undead' is not covered(or prohibited) by RAW. But I'll go with:
"Sure! Sounds like fun!"