|
I'll start by saying I had an excellent GM. Now, if I ever sit down at a table and half are pregens. I'm going to switch gears and pull out a pregen of my own.
To prep for this I will be familiar with whichever pregen I carry to give anyone else a fighting chance.
At GenCon I played 1st Bone Keep tier 6-7 with six players. Three pregen lvl 7 and three normal lvl 6. The pregens said they played before. They played warhammer and D&D! NO Pathfinder experience ever. And it was evident once we got started. I guess it's our fault for believing them.
Pregen fighter died very early. And left the table. Two of the normal pfs died further in. And paid the res price. At the end the pregens left without chronicle sheets. No harm/ no foul. GM's hands are tied.
SO my question is. If/when I play my backup pregen instead of my normal pfs, and it dies in a scenario, what is the impact on my normal pfs character? What will the chronicle sheet say?
I hate to play this way. Because I love the characters I build from the beginning. But that is exactly why. Because I love playing. And after a few deaths you can't play anymore because the PP or gold is gone! Rip the sheets up. It's just memory after that.
I can totally accept a death by story, tactics, or dice rolls. It's part of the game. I just hate deaths that could of/should of had a better chance if everyone was honest.
I didn't play 2nd Bone Keep.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
|
1st, If you have an in tier character, you are supposed to play them, and not a pre-gen.
2nd, If you do play a pre-gen, whatever happened to the pregen happens to your character when the chronicle is applied.
To expand on this:
1) The Guide specifies that you can't apply pregen credit to a PC of the same level (except at level 1). But even if you have a PC of the same level, you could play a pregen and apply it to a lower-level PC.
2) If your pregen dies, the character you apply the credit to also dies, but you can apply it to a brand-new PC, and just have a "stillborn" character, so to speak.
|
Chris, there was a recent change in the Guide to Organized play, although RainyDayNinja does a better job of explaining it.
You may not apply a Chronicle sheet earned with a pregenerated character to a character that was already at the level of the pregenerated character or higher, as you should have used this character for the scenario instead.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
I'm not sure that's a change. The Guide has instructed players to apply pre-gen credit when their characters reach the pre-gen's level. For a PC already there or higher, they've "missed the bus".
The question is, must a player play his 7th-level fighter in a party that has plenty of warriors but no cleric, or can he play Kyra 7 and apply the credit to, say, his 5th-level ranger?
|
|
Mystic Lemur's quote kind of conflicts with what the guide says at the beginning of that paragraph.
If you don’t have time to create a new character or simply wish to try out a new character class, you may choose to use one of several level-appropriate pregenerated characters available at paizo.com/pathfindersociety or from your local event coordinator.
|
|
So we can play. Just can't apply if equal tier or better. That would still save the pfs character from a total party wipe of ignorance.
So if we play hardcore. I would vote to eleminate pregens altogether. With the rule of come prepared or you're level 1. If you don't have a pfs number, then you're level 1. That's fair to those that EARN it.
|
I kind of knew this would happen. The pregens suck compared to the firepower we were bringing into Bonekeep. Then factor in player experience and the teamwork of an average PFS player. Not that good.
I was actually looking for a 6th player for Bonekeep 1. It's too bad you didn't see the message, we finished both Bonekeeps and part 1 was done with a pregen cleric as our 6th. Our 6th player could have been anyone, he hardly did anything. That cleric was replaced by a ninja in part 2.
I can see why people would want to play pregens at Bonekeep, to try it out without committing anything. Then you can just enjoy it without worrying. It was really up to groups to muster without pregens imo. We took on a pregen just because we knew it didn't matter.
|
|
If I came to bonekeep and someone sat a pregen I would have left too.
Something that brutal is made to test people. Not for new people that have never played.
I think when signing up for bonekeep there should have been more of a warning to prevent this.
When I play Bonekeep at DragonCOn I'll have a character for the 3-4 tier - but if the table that is there want to play 6-7 I'll need to play a pregen.
There are reasons other than brand new for playing pregens - and actually some of the newer pregens are not as bad - and people seem to like Selah level 7 for her nearly fully charged cure moderate wounds wand. ;)
|
|
I (the GM) knew this was going to be a problem as soon as they set down at the table and pulled out one of each of the pregens. That's why I went up an addressed the situation to Mike Brock. It wasnt so much the fact that they were pregens. It was the fact that they were new players using the pregens. They hadnt used the system before. There was a gunlsinger 7 that only shot once a round and a ninja 7 that didnt get a sneak attack off once.
I can see why people would want to play pregens at Bonekeep, to try it out without committing anything. Then you can just enjoy it without worrying. It was really up to groups to muster without pregens imo. We took on a pregen just because we knew it didn't matter.
Unfortunately, because of the type of scenario it was, we will probably never see the gentleman who played Valeros again. I mentioned this to campaign leadership after the con.
I think when signing up for bonekeep there should have been more of a warning to prevent this.
The very first thing the GM says, is "This is a really hard scenario that you will more then likely die from. If this is not the scenario for you, this is the time to leave".
The players did not register, they showed up with generics. I actually had to swap some of my generics with cash, because they didnt know how much the events cost and hadn't purchased enough generics for the 3 players.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
|
While there was a warning issued before the session started, such a warning wasn't made on the signup page. The warning also wasn't given until well after the other sessions had started, which would make it difficult for players to reseat.
I think that, in future years, it would be helpful if there was a convention page regarding GenCon and other large cons that offer a brief synposis of scenarios offered, as well as a "How to start with PFS" page. I came across a lot of players at my tables who were signed up or who had played Bonekeep without realizing what they were buying tickets for.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think a solution of sorts is to offer other events at the same time as a special event like Bonekeep, especially low-tier ones like they did this year, and to "encourage" casual players and/or generic ticket holders with pregen to play those instead. The lethality of Bonekeep is not a great experience for those who are weak in the rules as well as playing an unoptimized pregen. It is also likely a poor experience for the regular players who will have to make up for not only the player's lack of game-mastery, but also the power-level of the pregen/s, which becomes even more problematic if said pregens die and the remaining players are left to deal with encounters down both in usable resources and action economy.
@Chris, while there is no "official" rule stating you must play your level-appropriate, legal character whenever possible, it is encouraged and is the intention. No, we are not saying you have to, but its similar to the expectation that players not sell their awarded chronicle boons. There is a myriad of reasons why a player would choose a pregen instead of their own level-appropriate PC, most can be mitigated with other solutions.
I think one of the issues comes into play when someone choses to play a pregen and does not fill out the session tracker. Then at the end, once they have seen the results, wants to add their PC's info and apply the chronicle. Many regard this as "cheesy," and gaming the system. If the pregen dies, you can avoid having to apply that to your own PC. Also, since there will be no record you ever played the scenario, you can replay it without anyone knowing (except maybe in a regular local group who would be aware). Also, if you do not fare well with rewards, fame/gold/etc., you can avoid taking the "hit." Of course, we all know that cheaters gonna cheat and we cannot really stop it entirely, things like encouraging playing your own characters reduce the occurrences and don't really have a negative impact on the community.
I'm sure people can talk of numerous "one-off" situations/reasons where playing a pregen in lieu of your "real" character is effective, I'm just talking in general cases, so as always YMMV. In the end, as long as everyone is having fun, who cares!
Explore! Report! Cooperate!
|
Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
|
While there was a warning issued before the session started, such a warning wasn't made on the signup page. The warning also wasn't given until well after the other sessions had started, which would make it difficult for players to reseat.
I think that, in future years, it would be helpful if there was a convention page regarding GenCon and other large cons that offer a brief synposis of scenarios offered, as well as a "How to start with PFS" page. I came across a lot of players at my tables who were signed up or who had played Bonekeep without realizing what they were buying tickets for.
Yes there was. I set the event up so that when someone purchased tickets, they received an email with the exact warning text found in the front of the scenario.
Here is a copy of the email I receive when I submit an event:
Submitted for Review
Dear Michael Brock (ID: 885),
RPG1345200 PFS Gen Con Exclusive #1: Ruins Bonekeep Level 1: The Silent Grave has been submitted for Gen Con Indy. We will review your submission shortly for any errors or problems.
An email will be sent to you if your event is accepted or if you need to make any corrections, but it is your responsibility to regularly check on your events to confirm their status and make sure that everything is in order. A copy of the event you submitted is provided below, please keep it for your records. If you notice any mistakes, you can edit it before we review it be clicking here: http://registration.gencon.com/event_registrations/45200/edit
Thanks for getting involved and running events at the show!
Gen Con Events Team
CURRENT EVENT:
Game ID RPG1345200
Gaming Group / Company Paizo Publishing, LLC
Gen Con Comments
Title PFS Gen Con Exclusive #1: Ruins Bonekeep Level 1: The Silent Grave
Short Description A Pathfinder Society exclusive event for 3rd-7th level characters. This deadly event is designed to push characters to their limit & beyond. With danger comes greater reward for those that survive.
Long Description Written by Jason Bulmahn, Pathfinder Lead Designer. Just outside the city of Absalom sits the ruins of a long-forgotten siege castle. Torn down nearly to its foundation, the ruins of Bonekeep have been silent for decades, but the Pathfinders have learned of a series of dungeons beneath its crumbling white pillars, and it appears that they are not-so silent after all. Foul creatures and deadly traps await those daring to plunder its depths, but the rumor of untold wealth and forgotten relics make such dangers worth any risk.
Event Type RPG - Role Playing Game
Game System Pathfinder RPG
Rules Edition 1st
Min Players 6
Max Players 720
Age Requirement Teen (13+)
Experience Required Some (You've played it a bit and understand the basics)
Materials Provided No
Preferred Time 2013/08/15 07:00 PM
Event Duration 5
GM Names
Message to Registered Players Welcome to the Ruins of Bonekeep. This is the first of a series of special events designed to test your character to its limits and beyond. The threat of character death is very real in this event, but the potential rewards are greater as a result. You will be able to, as a table, decide to leave the event at any time should it become too deadly for you, except when engaged in combat. If this is not the type of event for you, now is the time to choose a different event.
Web Address for Info
Email for Info mike.brock@paizo.com
Is this Event a Tournament? No
Tournament Round 1 of 1
How long can someone expect to play before elimination?
Should attendees sign up for this event? Yes, they can register for this round without having played in any other events
Do you have any special requests? No
Special Layout? No
Table Size? 5' round
Players per Table? 6
Need Electricity? No
Microphones needed? 0
A/V Requests: --- - ''
Special Request Details
Special Request Cost $0.00
Gen Con Base Price $6.00
Additional Fee $0.00
Administrative Fee $0.00
Name for Payment
Address for Payment
Event Cost $6.00
Start Date 2013/08/15 07:00 PM
End Date 2013/08/16 12:00 AM
Location
Room Name
Table Number
Number of Tables 120
Event Ticket Count
Generic Ticket count
Other Ticket Count
Number of Players 0
Total Due 0.0
Skip Date/Time Check? false
Registration Start
Registration End
Max Registrations Per Account
Exclude From Errata No
Special Category none
UPDATE HISTORY:
2013/03/01 06:48 PM
Updated by mike brock (2013/03/01 06:48 PM)
Game code changed from to RPG1345200
2013/03/01 06:48 PM
Created by mike brock
Additionally, the long event descriptions under every scenario was entered exactly as it is listed on our product pages here.
Also, we had copies of the Quick Start Guide spread out across HQ and the Hero Lab stations.
|
|
Errrrr that email is 90% worthless info for a player.
If I have to read through lines of text that serve me no purpose in an email that is automatically generated it is quick to assume the whole meail is garbage. With my job I do not possibly have enough time in the day to finish half of them.
I am sorry I do not think that email is a good excuse with the beggining of non-essential and ending of it.
When you have similar kinds of useless information clustering important information the brain purposely ignores it on most attempts. These are how internet scams work and trick people for FREE walmart gift cards.
|
|
It would not have made a difference if there was something posted online in signups that this is a deadly scenario or that players who signed-up received a long email that in the middle of it was a small disclaimer.
In this situation, these players were walk-ins, who had never played before and wanted to give it a try. They didn't even know how much it cost before handing in generic tickets. As soon as they set down and dug out pregens, I read the disclaimer. Thinking and hoping that they would decide that this is not the scenario for them and then ask for a table that was geared for new players. (This happened before the sign-in sheet was even passed around)
In the end, it did not end well. This is solely because they were brand sticking new players. The pregens are fine. If played tactically, they could have helped the other players, but this was not the case. So it ended poorly.
Bonekeep 1 is not a scenario for new players and I, as the GM, should have stressed that more to them.
|
|
If I have to read through lines of text that serve me no purpose in an email that is automatically generated it is quick to assume the whole meail is garbage.
So more specific information regarding the nature of the event is asked and when *you* get it, you can't be bothered with reading it? I cannot express how ridiculous that is. We're not talking about work here. You can read that email at your leisure. There is essentially no time limit and no real deadline. Not to mention it is not a routine email that would be expected in a work environment that may include a lot of unimportant, but necessary formalities.
We are also not talking about some store or other organization trying to sell you something. We are talking about GenCon, the biggest gaming event of the year. Do they send out period emails? Yes, but they are hardly frequent enough to cause issues even with a casual reader.What more was Mike expected to do that was outside the normal expectations? A personal phone call to every ticket registration and denying anyone without a suitable amount of experience the chance to play? Heck, we even had Jason himself come in and read the disclaimer and clearly emphasize the nature of the event.
This is a game that you volunteer to play and in this case, the leadership went out of the way to provide additional information regarding the nature of the event that was above and beyond the expectation and clearly outside the "norm" for GenCon events. If anyone ignored it or couldn't be bothered to read it and that resulted in a poor table experience, you have no one but yourself to blame.
Personally, I think the event/s went just about as well as they could have. I had the pleasure of not only pregen players, but four of the six had not played PFS before, although they were familiar with PFRPG. We had a great time despite a character death and they all registered for new player numbers.
[/rant]
|
|
Standard person problem ignorance IE what is good for you is nto good for everyone else
Correct if I recieve an email full of information that does nto pertain to me I stop readint he email. A GREAT deal of that information that was sent in that email is worthless.
If I started my post with your exact quote, would you reread it? It contains important information that you may have mistyped.
I work in Credit and debit card fraud. Every day I deal with people that sign up for ecig, lovasto skin cream, and what other internet scams there are. They fill their fine print full of BS about how awesome their product is. Then in the middle of it put ohh by the way here are your hidden fees. It is a KNOWN tactic to trick people. This happens all the time. Even outside of reading, this is why you have trouble smellking your own bad breath if you have it. It is a predictable human response.
So flooding an email with unimportant information is not only used by immoral people becuase they knwo people do not read it, but a common tactic. So when someone else sends me an AUOTMATED message full of garbge to me. Yes I stop reading. Heck it looks like a confirmation email. It would be easy to assume, yes I remmeber this.
That email could have easy cut down to the part he bolded. Mike even knew that part might be missed reading his post so he bolded it. He took ACTION to stress that that part was important becuase there is soooo much not important stuff.
Edit* the scientifc term is called Habituation.
If I PAY (not volunteer, nice little lie you put in there) to play a game to challenge the best I have, and I am put onto a team not ready to play the same game. Well that is not what I am PAYING for. Now since I PAYING not volunteering to play I could throw out kyle bairds previous math equation of what the game should be worth in value.
Now I came in with a 6 man team. So that issue was not mine. But I would be upset too had I been forced to play it with people not prepared for the same type of game. Since bonekeep is an exception, it deserves exceptions.
|
|
I was told by campaign leadership, "this would be a good learning experience", and it was.
I had the 3 gentlemen (who had characters), again, at my table of Seige of Diamond City. They learned from Bonekeep 1 and brought 4 of the knowledgable friends along. So the had a well rounded party for the special. It ended much better. All the players seemed happy at the end and said they really enjoyed the scenario.
|
Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
|
That email could have easy cut down to the part he bolded. Mike even knew that part might be missed reading his post so he bolded it. He took ACTION to stress that that part was important becuase there is soooo much not important stuff..
Just an FYI, before you start throwing me under the bus for sending a bunch of info people wouldnt receive and comparing it to credit fraud, that email I posted is what I receive from Gen Con. That is why it is addressed to me and why it talks about my event of 720 players is being reviewed for acceptance by the Gen Con system. I am the only one who sees all that info. The only info someone purchasing a ticket for the event receives via email is the bold section I included. That is why I bolded it. That also why it is the only section labeled as "Message to Registered Players".
To make it easier to understand, if you purchased a ticket to either of the Bonekeep events, you would have received an email from Gen Con that advised the following:
Welcome to the Ruins of Bonekeep. This is the first of a series of special events designed to test your character to its limits and beyond. The threat of character death is very real in this event, but the potential rewards are greater as a result. You will be able to, as a table, decide to leave the event at any time should it become too deadly for you, except when engaged in combat. If this is not the type of event for you, now is the time to choose a different event.
|
|
stuff
I apologize. My analogy was not to compare you to malicous activity, but to explain the issue I saw with how your information was presented. I am sorry that conclusion was drawn. I was trying to explain my reference to the problem I perceived with a personal experience. The reason I attempted my best logic was to prevent other people having an issue again.
I respect and appreciate the Paizo staff greatly. They did a wonderful job. Mike brock in no ways do I think you are in anyway immoral. So please do not perceive that from my posts. I am sorry, I do not remeber recieving that email, but I believe you it was sent. I saw what you posted and just knew if that was what sent I would understand me or others not remembering it as well.
So sorry for my misunderstanding. I saw in error and made a poor assumption.
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
Maybe they thought it would be a fun experience and don't worry too much about PCs getting killed, Felix. There are Gen-Con events, like the infamous "Breakfast with Tracy Hickman," where every PC gets killed. (Paizo has run events like that before. Have you read "Seven Swords of Sin"?)