Seeking some further clarification about ranged sneak attacks.
In what ways can a character apply sneak attack damage to all his attacks without using greater invisibility?
1st Scenario- its the 2nd round of combat(so enemies aren't flat-footed), the rouge uses vanish. On his next turn he breaks invisibility and takes a full-round attack action, with rapid shot on a enemy gaining sneak attack damage on all 3 attacks.
(also side question, if its the first round and the enemies are flat-footed would this scenario play out any differently?)
2nd scenario- Before combat begins, the rouge makes stealth checks against the enemies perception to attempt to get behind a wall that provides partial concealment. He then has two choices as part of the surprise round he can: 1. take a full attack action as above but then enemies become aware of him or he can 2. take a "sniping" action to take a single attack and then make another stealth check at -20 to have his location remain unknown.
Are these scenarios correct? If not please provide rules/explanations as to why not. Thanks!
To my knowledge, only the first attack when breaking stealth (or invisibility) grants the sneak attack damage, not all attacks in the round. This would apply to both scenarios.
The only way I know of to reliably get multiple ranged sneak attacks off is greater invisibility or like abilities. Others may know of more obscure ways, however. Good luck!
All scenarios are wrong because there is no "rouge" class... ;)
Kidding aside:
1st Scenario: On his next turn he breaks invisibility how? Dismissing an effect is usually a standard action which won't let him make any attacks (he used his only standard action to dismiss invisibility). The easiest (and probably best) way for him to dismiss invisibility is just to make an attack. For this one, only one, his first attack, he gets the benefit of being invisible (target loses DEX modifier, rogue gets +2 to hit and may sneak attack). Now he is visible BEFORE he makes his second and third attacks. So he only gets sneak attack on his first attack.
(Side Question: if the enemy is still flatfooted in round 1 because they have not moved yet, then your rogue may sneak attack with every attack and he doesn't even need to use Vanish - this is because Flat-footed combatants lose their DEX modifier until they are no longer Flat-footed, which makes them able to be sneak attacked)
2nd Scenario: Nobody can make any full attacks in a Surprise round. You can only take one Standard action or one Move action, not both, and no Full-round actions. So, during the Surprise round he can take one attack and use Sneak Attack. That's it. Then during the first (non-Surprise) round, if he has higher initiative, he can take his Full Attack action and use Sneak Attack on every attack because the enemy is still Flat-footed. If the rogue loses initiative, then during his first (non-Surprise) round, he cannot take any sneak attacks because nobody is Flat-footed.
If in the 2nd Scenario the rogue wants to snipe, he must begin with concealment (in your example he did this) and then every round he can try to snipe - one shot that allows Sneak Attack, then the Stealth check at -20 to resume hiding so he can try another snipe shot next round.
Since we're discussing Ranged attacks, don't forget that the rogue must be within 30' to use Sneak Attack.
Shatter Defenses feat with the Enforcer feat, using an bow with blunt arrows or the merciful enchant. Your first attack will not be sneak attack, subsequent ones will be provided you succeed at intimidating the enemy.
1st scenario is not correct. You only get sneak attack damage on the first attack out of invisibility. After the first attack, you become visible, so your remaining attacks do not apply sneak attack damage.
The side question however could be correct. Vanish (the spell)is a standard action to cast, unless he has Vanishing Trick (the ninja trick) to do it as a swift. If he can cast vanish from the ninja trick (using Ki as a swift action), he could take a shot in the surprise round, then vanish as a swift. Then, provided he wins initiative, he could make all three attacks during the first full round of combat against an enemy who has not acted and get sneak attack damage on them all. (although as has been said, if he wins iniative he didn't need to vanish anyways) With either the spell vanish or the ninja trick, only the first attack you make gets sneak attack bonuses, since you appear after the first attack. (Note, the attack doesn't have to hit, you just have to fire and you appear.)
2nd scenario is also not correct. You may only take a single standard action or a single move action during the surprise round. So, one shot getting sneak attack. Now, if he wins initiative after that first attack, he may make his full attack against an enemy who has not yet acted in the first full round and get sneak attack damage on them all, but he then gives up his right to "snipe" and make another hide check at the -20.
Find a party member (or cohort) willing to use Greater Feint. The feat makes the target flat-footed until the start of the user's next turn. This allows anyone to benefit from the feint, including the rapid shot using rogue!
If anything, ask the party bard (or be that bard yourself) if he is cool with spending two feats to get it by 8th level. I enjoyed playing a support bard that could help with sneak attacks. (To encourage more support characters out there, check out Pathfinder Chronicler, the Bodyguard feat, and Benevolent armor enchantment)
As for ways you -can- get this to work, if you have darkvision, and someone casts Darkness (the spell) on you, and the enemy does not have darkvision, and you fire from within 30ft (sneak attack range) you get sneak attack damage on all attacks. (Because you can see him and he can't see you).
If you have a friendly person use Dirty Trick (the combat Maneuver) to blind the enemy, you get sneak attack on all your attacks against him.
If you cast obscuring mist, or just light a smokestick, while wearing a Goz Mask or have the Oracle revelation to see through smoke and fog, and are more than 5ft from the enemy, (but still within 30ft for sneak attack) you can sneak attack him on all attacks.
Note that there are several rogue talents and archetypes, as well as a couple items that allow you to sneak attack from further away.
All scenarios are wrong because there is no "rouge" class... ;)
Kidding aside:
1st Scenario: On his next turn he breaks invisibility how? Dismissing an effect is usually a standard action which won't let him make any attacks (he used his only standard action to dismiss invisibility). The easiest (and probably best) way for him to dismiss invisibility is just to make an attack.
(Side Question: if the enemy is still flatfooted in round 1 because they have not moved yet, then your rogue may sneak attack with every attack and he doesn't even need to use Vanish - this is because Flat-footed combatants lose their DEX modifier until they are no longer Flat-footed, which makes them able to be sneak attacked)
2nd Scenario: Nobody can make any full attacks in a Surprise round. You can only take one Standard action or one Move action, not both, and no Full-round actions. So, during the Surprise round he can take one attack and use Sneak Attack. That's it. Then during the first (non-Surprise) round, if he has higher initiative, he can take his Full Attack action and use Sneak Attack on every attack because the enemy is still Flat-footed. If the rogue loses initiative, then during his first (non-Surprise) round, he cannot take any sneak attacks because nobody is Flat-footed.
If in the 2nd Scenario the rogue wants to snipe, he must begin with concealment (in your example he did this) and then every round he can try to snipe - one shot that allows Sneak Attack, then the Stealth check at -20 to resume hiding so he can try another snipe shot next round.
Since we're discussing Ranged attacks, don't forget that the rogue must be within 30' to use Sneak Attack.
"For this one, only one, his first attack, he gets the benefit of being invisible (target loses DEX modifier, rogue gets +2 to hit and may sneak attack). Now he is visible BEFORE he makes his second and third attacks. So he only gets sneak attack on his first attack".
Do you have a quote from the rules that shows this?
Have not been able to find anything in the invisibility spell regarding it. If you can get full attacks when the enemy is flat-footed, I don't see why you wouldn't be able to if you are breaking invisibility with a full-round attack action.
The creature or object touched becomes invisible. If the recipient is a creature carrying gear, that vanishes, too. If you cast the spell on someone else, neither you nor your allies can see the subject, unless you can normally see invisible things or you employ magic to do so.
Items dropped or put down by an invisible creature become visible; items picked up disappear if tucked into the clothing or pouches worn by the creature. Light, however, never becomes invisible, although a source of light can become so (thus, the effect is that of a light with no visible source). Any part of an item that the subject carries but that extends more than 10 feet from it becomes visible.
Of course, the subject is not magically silenced, and certain other conditions can render the recipient detectable (such as swimming in water or stepping in a puddle). If a check is required, a stationary invisible creature has a +40 bonus on its Stealth checks. This bonus is reduced to +20 if the creature is moving. The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character's perceptions. Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge, remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth. If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear. Spells such as bless that specifically affect allies but not foes are not attacks for this purpose, even when they include foes in their area.
Invisibility can be made permanent (on objects only) with a permanency spell.
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Now, for his argument that attacks is plural, greater invisbility has 2 differences. it lasts rounds per level instead of minutes, and -doesn't- end after the subject attacks.
Find a party member (or cohort) willing to use Greater Feint. The feat makes the target flat-footed until the start of the user's next turn. This allows anyone to benefit from the feint, including the rapid shot using rogue!
If anything, ask the party bard (or be that bard yourself) if he is cool with spending two feats to get it by 8th level. I enjoyed playing a support bard that could help with sneak attacks. (To encourage more support characters out there, check out Pathfinder Chronicler, the Bodyguard feat, and Benevolent armor enchantment)
Mesavan, this won't work. Greater Feint still works like feinting, which denies the opponent their Dex bonus to AC versus YOUR attacks. It doesn't change that. (Also, being denied your Dex bonus to AC is not the same as being flat-footed.)
As for ways you -can- get this to work, if you have darkvision, and someone casts Darkness (the spell) on you, and the enemy does not have darkvision, and you fire from within 30ft (sneak attack range) you get sneak attack damage on all attacks. (Because you can see him and he can't see you).
If you have a friendly person use Dirty Trick (the combat Maneuver) to blind the enemy, you get sneak attack on all your attacks against him.
If you cast obscuring mist, or just light a smokestick, while wearing a Goz Mask or have the Oracle revelation to see through smoke and fog, and are more than 5ft from the enemy, (but still within 30ft for sneak attack) you can sneak attack him on all attacks.
Note that there are several rogue talents and archetypes, as well as a couple items that allow you to sneak attack from further away.
I'm not sure raw support your first and third statements. I agree that it probably should, but I'm not positive that not being unable to see you qualifies as being denied dex to allow for sneak attack. Do you have any rule showing this?
Blinding someone with dirty trick works as blind does specifically state they're denied their dexterity.
Can you take a full attack action when you have concealment against non flat-footed opponents? If not can you cite a rule that says so.
So lets say round 1(going before the enemy) he uses snipe to do 1 sneak attack on the flat-footed enemy and then succeeds on his stealth check. Next round can he then choose to not snipe and instead take a full-attack action from behind the wall and get sneak attacks on every attack against the enemies who are no longer flat-footed because its round 2 of combat.
Do you have a quote from the rules that shows this?...
From Invisibility Spell:
"If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear."
The meaning of the sentence could be debated, but during organized events, the judgement is that only one attack benefits from invisibility.
A full attack is comprised of multiple attacks, which means the first attack (not action) breaks invisibility and removes the condition that granted the flat-footed advantage.
It could be argued that the target is flat-footed until he acts (as if you beat him in round one).
Find a party member (or cohort) willing to use Greater Feint. The feat makes the target flat-footed until the start of the user's next turn. This allows anyone to benefit from the feint, including the rapid shot using rogue!
If anything, ask the party bard (or be that bard yourself) if he is cool with spending two feats to get it by 8th level. I enjoyed playing a support bard that could help with sneak attacks. (To encourage more support characters out there, check out Pathfinder Chronicler, the Bodyguard feat, and Benevolent armor enchantment)
Mesavan, this won't work. Greater Feint still works like feinting, which denies the opponent their Dex bonus to AC versus YOUR attacks. It doesn't change that. (Also, being denied your Dex bonus to AC is not the same as being flat-footed.)
There was actually a pretty big discussion about this awhile back (this was the thread I started to FAQ the topic). Turns out that there were probably about 30% of the respondents who believed that the feat was mostly useless if you interpreted this way, and instead was meant to deny DEX to the target against all attackers.
It got marked as 'answered in the FAQ' but wasn't as far as I can tell.
[edit]
Re: Invisibility breaking after an attack. Related precedence would be the errata to the stealth rules, which explicitly phrases it that your stealth ends and the target becomes aware of you (and thus regains his DEX to AC) after a single attack roll.
Find a party member (or cohort) willing to use Greater Feint. The feat makes the target flat-footed until the start of the user's next turn. This allows anyone to benefit from the feint, including the rapid shot using rogue!
If anything, ask the party bard (or be that bard yourself) if he is cool with spending two feats to get it by 8th level. I enjoyed playing a support bard that could help with sneak attacks. (To encourage more support characters out there, check out Pathfinder Chronicler, the Bodyguard feat, and Benevolent armor enchantment)
Mesavan, this won't work. Greater Feint still works like feinting, which denies the opponent their Dex bonus to AC versus YOUR attacks. It doesn't change that. (Also, being denied your Dex bonus to AC is not the same as being flat-footed.)
There was actually a pretty big discussion about this awhile back (this was the thread I started to FAQ the topic). Turns out that there were probably about 30% of the respondents who believed that the feat was mostly useless if you interpreted this way, and instead was meant to deny DEX to the target against all attackers.
It got marked as 'answered in the FAQ' but wasn't as far as I can tell.
[edit]
Re: Invisibility breaking after an attack. Related precedence would be the errata to the stealth rules, which explicitly phrases it that your stealth ends and the target becomes aware of you (and thus regains his DEX to AC) after a single attack roll.
Could you link to the errata where it mentions single attack rolls?
"For this one, only one, his first attack, he gets the benefit of being invisible (target loses DEX modifier, rogue gets +2 to hit and may sneak attack). Now he is visible BEFORE he makes his second and third attacks. So he only gets sneak attack on his first attack".
Do you have a quote from the rules that shows this?
Have not been able to find anything in the invisibility spell regarding it. If you can get full attacks when the enemy is flat-footed, I don't see why you wouldn't be able to if you are breaking invisibility with a full-round attack action.
We're talking about all kinds of normal invisibility (not Greater Invisibility). In other words, normal invisibility that breaks when you make an attack:
This is from the Invisibility spell: "The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature."
This is from the Vanish spell: "This spell functions like invisibility" which means it also ends if the subject attacks any creature.
This is from the Ninja talents, Vanishing Trick: "This ability functions as invisibility." which means it also ends if the subject attacks any creature.
And so on.
If you're invisible and you attack any creature, your invisibility ends. Instantly. Not later, not at the end of your round. It just ends right now.
So in your scenario, with three attacks, it goes like this:
Attack 1 with invisibility and apply sneak attack, invisibility ends
Attack 2 without invisibility and no sneak attack
Attack 3 without invisibility and no sneak attack
If you don't want your invisibility to end when you attack, then you must use Greater Invisibility or some other spell or ability that says it works like Greater Invisibility. I assumed you knew that because your OP said you wanted something "other than Greater Invisibility".
CRB Additional rules chapter, Vision and light section wrote:
In areas of darkness, creatures without darkvision are effectively blinded. In addition to the obvious effects, a blinded creature has a 50% miss chance in combat (all opponents have total concealment), loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and takes a –4 penalty on Perception checks that rely on sight and most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. Areas of darkness include an unlit dungeon chamber, most caverns, and outside on a cloudy, moonless night.
3rd Statement:
CRB Obsuring Mist wrote:
A misty vapor arises around you. It is stationary. The vapor obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. A creature 5 feet away has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker cannot use sight to locate the target).
Even darkvision is blocked by obscuring mist, and they would be blind to you just as creatures without darkvision are in Darkness. So they would take the sneak attack. At the very least, you could make a single attack/round and make a hide check without the -20 for sniping as you have total concealment, even if someone lawyers it around to not allow the full attack.
"For this one, only one, his first attack, he gets the benefit of being invisible (target loses DEX modifier, rogue gets +2 to hit and may sneak attack). Now he is visible BEFORE he makes his second and third attacks. So he only gets sneak attack on his first attack".
Do you have a quote from the rules that shows this?
Have not been able to find anything in the invisibility spell regarding it. If you can get full attacks when the enemy is flat-footed, I don't see why you wouldn't be able to if you are breaking invisibility with a full-round attack action.
We're talking about all kinds of normal invisibility (not Greater Invisibility). In other words, normal invisibility that breaks when you make an attack:
This is from the Invisibility spell: "The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature."
This is from the Vanish spell: "This spell functions like invisibility" which means it also ends if the subject attacks any creature.
This is from the Ninja talents, Vanishing Trick: "This ability functions as invisibility." which means it also ends if the subject attacks any creature.
And so on.
If you're invisible and you attack any creature, your invisibility ends. Instantly. Not later, not at the end of your round. It just ends right now.
So in your scenario, with three attacks, it goes like this:
Attack 1 with invisibility and apply sneak attack, invisibility ends
Attack 2 without invisibility and no sneak attack
Attack 3 without invisibility and no sneak attack
If you don't want your invisibility to end when you attack, then you must use Greater Invisibility or some other spell or ability that says it works like Greater Invisibility. I assumed you knew that because your OP said you wanted something "other than Greater Invisibility".
In any case, I hope that clears it up.
I thought the idea is that your able to get sneak attacks because the opponent has no idea where the arrows are coming from. So over the 6 seconds of your turn you fire 3 arrows at this opponent who isn't prepared to defend against them because he doesn't know where they are coming from. Yes invisibility breaks after that first attack but I don't think pathfinder has rules for statuses (in this case the enemy losing dex because he can't react to the attack) changing mid action; in this case a full attack action.
Of course it accounts for status changes mid round.
Or do you not apply a monks stunning fist until the end of the round, even if he hits with it as the first attack in a flurry?
Do you let a player trip an opponent with their first attack, but not apply the prone penalty until after all his full-attack?
Hit with a critical feat, but not apply it until the end of the round?
Each conditional action means just that, whatever action triggers it. In this case, invisibility drops after an attack, not a full attack, not at the end of the round, but after the first swing/shot/damaging spell you make, even if it misses.
Could you link to the errata where it mentions single attack rolls?
Sure - it's actually been added to the text of the stealth skill on the PRD at this point. I'll link to it and also include the text I'm referencing:
Stealth - errata:
Breaking Stealth: When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make and [sic] attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).
Sniping: If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.
I thought the idea is that your able to get sneak attacks because the opponent has no idea where the arrows are coming from. So over the 6 seconds of your turn you fire 3 arrows at this opponent who isn't prepared to defend against them because he doesn't know where they are coming from. Yes invisibility breaks after that first attack but I don't think pathfinder has rules for statuses (in this case the enemy losing dex because he can't react to the attack) changing mid action; in this case a full attack action.
There is no facing in Pathfinder combat, so everyone, you, your friends, the monsters, everyone, is facing all directions (they are looking around, looking over their shoulder, searching for threats and dangers on every corner of the battlefield).
You start as invisible so they can't see you. You fire off one shot which makes you visible. Now they see you. The Perception Check DC to see a visible enemy is 0. You might be over 20' away (but less than 30' away since 30' is the maximum range for Sneak Attacks) and a kind GM might give a +5 DC because the enemy is "distracted" by the battle raging around him, so at most he needs a 7 Perception check to see you which just about anything in the game can make with a simple Take-10 roll.
So, you are instantly spotted by your target after your first attack which means no more Sneak Attacks or other advantages of being invisible for the remaining attacks this round.
You start as invisible so they can't see you. You fire off one shot which makes you visible. Now they see you. The Perception Check DC to see a visible enemy is 0. You might be over 20' away (but less than 30' away since 30' is the maximum range for Sneak Attacks) and a kind GM might give a +5 DC because the enemy is "distracted" by the battle raging around him, so at most he needs a 7 Perception check to see you which just about anything in the game can make with a simple Take-10 roll.
You can't take 10 during combat.
PRD wrote:
When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10.
@thewickedone
SKR says this about multiple sneak attacks from a single invisibility.
1. First round before the foe acts, he is flatfooted.
2. Greater Invisibility.
3. An ally that dips rogue for Distracting Attack talent. As long as he can get a sneak attack in with a melee attack, he'll make the foe flatfooted for all your attacks. You can't use the talent for yourself, you need another person to do it.
4. Dip Oracle and pick up Water Sight. Put up obscuring mist. You can see through it. Foes can't see you if you're more than 5 ft away. Enjoy your full attack sneak attacks.
5. Shatter Defenses feat. Super hefty pre-reqs and hard to set up. Rake Rogue can help.
