I've done it -> Self Sufficient Fighter? [or almost :D]

[Edeldhur]

Ok, so.... I have done it.

Some of you may have witnessed some of my rants in the forums regarding Melee characters in general and Fighters in particular, or not, since there are many of those :D

In any case, I've went ahead and made good on my "Fighter but... Smarter" concept and created the guy spoilered below (sampled at level 7). A smlall disclaimer before you click on that dreaded button though - the idea is:

- A capable melee combtant;
- A frontliner with all it entails: decent AC, decent damage so as not to be ignored, able to reach the bad guys spewing deadly spells in the back, etc;
- A useful character outside of combat -> Knowledges, Diplomacy, Survival, Use Magic Device, you name it;
- I am looking for a melee combatant, but well rounded -> My concept is the grizzled soldier, who has been through a lot, has picked up stuff here and there, and suck it up;
- One note about UMD -> I have chosen it to fill in on some holes. Now, I am aware that the caster should probably be the one casting fly on the melee, or... teleporting him into the fray or... Informing him of what weapon to use against enemy X, Y or Z, but still, I find there are some situations where the fighter can make for himself. Even if the caster casts fly on the fighter just before combat, I can still see usefulness on this 2-handed wielder to zap himself with a wand of shield, skyrocketing his AC;
- That being said, I would like to hear suggestions regarding what wands you would carry with you if any - I'm thinking about one or max 2 zaps before combat (one looks more realistic in fact);
- And of course I am looking for opinions on the character, in general :D

Here goes:

The self-sufficient Fighter?:

Male Human Fighter (Lore Warden) 5 Ranger 2
Init +2
Perception +11
--------------------
AC 24, touch 16, flat-footed 19 (+8 armor, +2 Dex, +1 deflection, +3 dodge)
hp 76 (7d10+19) [these are rolled, not averaged]
Fort +10
Ref +8
Will +5
--------------------
Speed 20 ft.
Melee +2 Greatsword +13/+8 (2d6+18/19-20/x2) or
Cold Iron Longsword +11/+6 (1d8+11/19-20/x2) or
Javelin +6/+1 (1d6+10/x2) or
Glaive +10/+5 (1d8+15/x3) or
Silver Light mace +10/+5 (1d6+10/x2)

Special Attacks favored enemy (humans +2), weapon training abilities (heavy blades +1)
--------------------
Str 22, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 12
Base Atk +7; CMB +11; CMD 31

Feats
Additional Traits,
Combat Expertise +/-2,
Dodge,
Lunge,
Mobility,
Power Attack -2/+4,
Pushing Assault,
Spring Attack,
Toughness,
Whirlwind Attack

Traits
Indomitable Faith
Pragmatic Activator
Threatening Defender
World Traveler (Diplomacy)

Skills
Acrobatics -1 (-5 jump)
Bluff +1 (+3 vs. humans)
Climb +8, Diplomacy +12
Escape Artist -1
Fly -1
Knowledge (arcana) +6 (+8 vs. humans)
Knowledge (dungeoneering) +10 (+12 vs. humans)
Knowledge (engineering) +6 (+8 vs. humans)
Knowledge (geography) +6 (+8 vs. humans)
Knowledge (history) +6 (+8 vs. humans)
Knowledge (local) +12 (+14 vs. humans)
Knowledge (nature) +6 (+8 vs. humans)
Knowledge (nobility) +6 (+8 vs. humans)
Knowledge (planes) +6 (+8 vs. humans)
Knowledge (religion) +6 (+8 vs. humans)
Linguistics +6
Perception +11 (+13 vs. humans)
Ride -1
Sense Motive +1 (+3 vs. humans)
Stealth -1
Survival +11 (+13 vs. humans, +12 to track)
Swim +8
Use Magic Device +14
--------------------
Gear
+2 Breastplate,
+2 Greatsword,
Cold Iron Longsword,
Silver Light mace,
Belt of giant strength +2,
Cloak of resistance +2,
Ring of protection +1,
Backpack, masterwork (empty),
Masterwork tool (Use Magic Device) [Lets assume this is accepted?]

Thoughts? :D

[Artanthos]

Pretty nice.

Good job.

[TGMaxMaxer]

It's a 33pt buy, so easier to be well rounded than your standard for AP 15pt or PFS legal 20pt.

It's also not a "fighter" as you took ranger for a no pre-req feat and extra skillpoints to get all those knowledges. Although it looks like you would have had the pre-reqs, since it seems that power attack or pushing assault was the ranger bonus feat

You could also go half-elf, getting the following racials and keeping the same stat mods.

ARG Half elf alt race traits wrote:

Arcane Training: Half-elves occasionally seek tutoring to help them master the magic in their blood. Half-elves with this racial trait have only one favored class, and it must be an arcane spellcasting class. They can use spell trigger and spell completion items for their favored class as if one level higher (or as a 1st-level character if they have no levels in that class). This racial trait replaces the multitalented racial trait.

Dual Minded: The mixed ancestry of some half-elves makes them resistant to mental attacks. Half-elves with this racial trait gain a +2 bonus on all Will saving throws. This racial trait replaces the adaptability racial trait.

And access to the feat

Elven Spirit:

Elven Spirit

Although you are of mixed heritage, you are closer to your elven relatives and the magic in their blood flows freely in your veins.

Prerequisite: Half-elf.

Benefit: You possess the elven magic racial trait of the elves, granting you a +2 racial bonus on caster level checks made to overcome spell resistance. In addition, you receive a +2 racial bonus on Spellcraft checks made to identify the properties of magic items. Alternatively, you can instead gain any one racial trait that elves can exchange for the elven magic racial trait.

Special: You can only take this feat at 1st level. If you take this feat, you cannot take the Human Spirit feat.

to get

Envoy wrote:

Envoy: Elves often have trouble relating to neighbors of other races, especially those with much shorter lifespans. As a result, some are trained in minor magics that are particularly useful when dealing with non-elves. Elves with this racial trait and an Intelligence score of 11 or higher gain the following spell-like abilities once per day: comprehend languages, detect magic, detect poison, and read magic. The caster level for these effects is equal to the elf's level. This racial trait replaces elven magic.

Other than that, good deal.

[Gwen Smith]

I like it! I'm a big fan of the Lore Warden.

Don't forget that rangers have a spell list, so unless you trade out spells in an archetype, you can start using spell trigger items at Ranger 1. If you can pick up a wand of Lead Blades, that will kick your all your weapons up a notch (2d6-->3d6, 1d8-->2d6, etc.).

[Rynjin]

It's pretty good and I'd play it I guess, but I'm not sure why it's even a Fighter in the first place (besides Feats) if the point was to be well rounded. Seems like straight Ranger would've done just as well or better.

This is coming from the perspective of someone who's rarely seen a scenario where Whirlwind Attack builds can shine though, maybe it works better in your experience in which case this build goes back up to "P. Good bruh".

[Mudfoot]

This seems to be a 33-pt character, if I'm counting right. As you rolled the hp, I assume you rolled the stats too. With those numbers, it's not hard to make an all-rounder.

AFAICT, quite a few of the calculated numbers are wrong too. Greatsword should be +14/+9 for 2d6+12, 2H longsword +12/+7 for 1d8+10 and Javelin +9/+4 for 1d6+6, for example. Hit points should be 6d10+24. Or are you using some house rules?

[TGMaxMaxer]

Seems like he's factoring in Combat Expertise to it all.

[Jack Rift]

Its 7d10 for sure, but not on the pluses. But yeah, rolled high stat characters are normally always well rounded.

[Edeldhur]

@Artanthos: Thank you :D

@TGMaxMaxer: Absolutely true -> He is a 33 point buy, I did forget to mention that. The stats were in fact rolled and yes, it makes it easier to be an "all rounder" like that. Bottom line, what I am looking at, for the time being, is making this characte work. So yeah, I'm looking for suggestions for this one, 33 points and all :D

Second. True, true, He is not full straightforward fighter -> that two level dip in ranger just offers too much to be passed by, and I am still not yet sure I wont' dip any more. Lets see how things go in further levels. [Pushing Assault was the bonus feat from ranger yes :D]

And DANG! I do like the benefits behind envoy, and half-elf does seem to fit the pragmatic nature of the character. I just didn't want to push the feats any further, to make sure he is efficient in combat.

@Gwen Smith: Lead Blades is just perfect. That is exactly the kind of suggestion I am looking for. Any good stuff from the Ranger spell list is a good option to have in a wand, as he has immediate access to it. Lead Blades, check! ;)

@Rynjin: You make a good point with the question regarding going straight ranger. I think in the end it comes down to the fact that the Lore Warden has access to all Knowledge skills, which allows him versatility in that aspect, and freedom to build him in whatever you want in that aspect. Also, Expertise is really nice in a build that uses no shield.

On the other hand, the fighter feats allow you to shore up the character defensively, in terms of feats that add to stuff like your saves, etc (Iron Will comes to mind).

As far as Whirlwind Attack goes, I have still to test it thoroughly, but I believe it works out quite decently. What would you say are its shortcomings?

@Mudfoot and TGMaxMaxer: Yep, it is a 33 point build. And yes, everything is factored in, except the AC penalty from Lunge :D

Thank you all for the feedback so far people - I will reinforce my question: Do you think he will hold his own? (Apart from making him a wizard), what would you suggest as improvement on this one?

[Rynjin]

Edeldhur wrote:

As far as Whirlwind Attack goes, I have still to test it thoroughly, but I believe it works out quite decently. What would you say are its shortcomings?

Mostly, the fact that in my experience it's rare for there to be more than 4-5 enemies on the field at one time, and they aren't really clustered up either. So it's better to just beat on one than do 1 hit to maybe 2 guys.

And yeah, the Feats let you shore up your saves...but that's because a Fighter has more need of Feats to do so than other classes.

A Ranger has more Wis synergy and almost as many Feats, as well as two good saves, so that at the very least makes you break even on saves.

All that said, yeah he should be able to hold his own pretty well.

[tomorrow]

I've been giving this subject some thought (for an NPC though, not a PC) and for a pure fighter competent character I lean towards a human dragoon fighter with the Fast Learner/Improvisation/Improved Improvisation trio of feats.

Dragoon because it makes you a two-handed fighter which isn't particularly feat intensive (allowing for the above mentioned feat line), and it has a special ability that makes lances both reach and non-reach for AoA. Which given the recent FAQ on two-handed fighting and off-hand attacks if pretty useful. Plus your weapon training has improved damage but still counts as weapon training for the purposes of gloves of dueling, which is awesome when you get to higher levels. And you keep Armor Training 1, which means you should be able to reduce its penalty to skills to at or near 0... and you since still have access to armor training, you should still get its negation of movement reductions in armor too.

Fast Learner/Improvisation/Improved Improvisation has you pretty well set for skills. Assuming you only go the bare minimum of Int 13 to acquire the feat, you will have 5 skill points per level for skills you want to focus on (one of which probably being UMD) and +4 to all skills you don't bother with and all skills are useable untrained. So you have at least +5 for all craft and knowledge checks and you use them as if trained in them.

Just somewhat random thoughts though... as I haven't actually put together said NPC as yet.