Been looking through the rules and reading posts about grappling on the boards here, but haven't found the magic answer.
Basically, here's the situation:
Runaway carriage drawn by a horse, player decides to attempt a grapple as the horse comes charging by and bring it to a stop (somehow?)....
Okay, how do you handle this?
It seems straightforward to me.
First of all, "charging" has a specific meaning in Pathfinder that doesn't apply in this case; the horse is merely running madly. The player needs to get within 5' of the horse (unless the player is a Storm Giant or something stilly like that), which he can probably do by moving on his turn. Once he has moved within 5', he attempts to grapple, provoking an attack of opportunity as he does so unless he has Improved Grapple, then rolls an attack roll, adding his CMB, against the horse's CMD.
If the horse is successfully grappled, it will no longer be able to move on its next turn except by breaking the grapple. (It's likely simply to bash the poor fool's head in with its hooves, but that's the player's lookout). If the horse is unable to break free, it (and the carriage) are stopped, but probably not prettily.
The main issues are that the player may not be able to move fast enough to catch a running horse (if he double moves, he won't have a standard action left to use to grapple), and he may not have a high enough CMB to successfully grapple what is, after all, a half-ton of angry off-brand hamburger.
A more sensible approach would be to try to grab the reins (a different type of combat maneuver check) and use the Handle Animal skill to bring the carriage to a controlled halt. Alternatively, jump onto its back and bring it to a halt with the Ride skill.
Orfamay Quest wrote: It seems straightforward to me.
First of all, "charging" has a specific meaning in Pathfinder that doesn't apply in this case; the horse is merely running madly. The player needs to get within 5' of the horse (unless the player is a Storm Giant or something stilly like that), which he can probably do by moving on his turn. Once he has moved within 5', he attempts to grapple, provoking an attack of opportunity as he does so unless he has Improved Grapple, then rolls an attack roll, adding his CMB, against the horse's CMD.
If the horse is successfully grappled, it will no longer be able to move on its next turn except by breaking the grapple. (It's likely simply to bash the poor fool's head in with its hooves, but that's the player's lookout). If the horse is unable to break free, it (and the carriage) are stopped, but probably not prettily.
The main issues are that the player may not be able to move fast enough to catch a running horse (if he double moves, he won't have a standard action left to use to grapple), and he may not have a high enough CMB to successfully grapple what is, after all, a half-ton of angry off-brand hamburger.
A more sensible approach would be to try to grab the reins (a different type of combat maneuver check) and use the Handle Animal skill to bring the carriage to a controlled halt. Alternatively, jump onto its back and bring it to a halt with the Ride skill.
If the horse is pulling a carriage, you would do better to treat it as a vehicle rather than a horse.
Vehicle Combat Rules
List the rules for vehicle combat, they might help you decide on a ruling somehow.
InsaneFox wrote:
If the horse is pulling a carriage, you would do better to treat it as a vehicle rather than a horse.
Actually, that wouldn't help.
A out-of-control horse pulling a carriage is either an "uncontrolled" vehicle which means it automatically decelerates to a stop without help (obviously not applicable), or the horse itself is the driver. In this case, you need to take some sort of action against the horse in order either to stop the carriage or at least to make it uncontrolled.
Either of which puts you straight back into the question posed by the opening post. How do you stop the horse?
The vehicle combat rules are specifically designed for ships, or at least for vehicles with well-behaved propulsion mechanisms. I'd simply say they're inapplicable and go for the ordinary grapple rules, which DO cover this mechanic. Grab the horse and stop him by force majeure.
Horses traditionally do not just keep running. They get tired, they stop panicking, etc. For a horse-drawn carriage to keep moving the horse has to have a reason to keep running. You are correct in that stopping the carriage is mostly about stopping the horse. Here are some options, a few mentioned before:
You can sever the harness that attaches the animals, making a Sunder attempt.
You can kill the horse. (Usually the carriage will over turn or otherwise catastrophically fail if you bring it to a dead stop)
You can use the harness and rig to bring the animals to a gradual stop using Handle Animal or such...
You can try to mount one of the lead horses and use Ride to bring it to a stop. Penalties for more horses in the team, and it would really need to be the lead animal. You know, herds.
Trip the lead Horse. Same problems with deceleration as killing.
Disconnect the team from the carriage by removing the locking pin from the harness.
Destroy the wheels.
Cleave the carriage front off.
Create Pit.
Charm Monster.
Many others...
If you are just looking for rules on how to resolve these things...well the horse has an entry in the Bestiary. Adjust if necessary. Resolve using the appropriate mechanism with the appropriate numbers.
For combat resolutions use AC/Attack Bonus/Hitpoints or CMD/CMB.
For social/skill resolutions use the descriptions and charts provided.
Essentially, it may seem weird, but these situations are fairly well provided for in the core mechanics.
Orfamay Quest wrote: InsaneFox wrote:
If the horse is pulling a carriage, you would do better to treat it as a vehicle rather than a horse.
Actually, that wouldn't help.
A out-of-control horse pulling a carriage is either an "uncontrolled" vehicle which means it automatically decelerates to a stop without help (obviously not applicable), or the horse itself is the driver. In this case, you need to take some sort of action against the horse in order either to stop the carriage or at least to make it uncontrolled.
Either of which puts you straight back into the question posed by the opening post. How do you stop the horse?
The vehicle combat rules are specifically designed for ships, or at least for vehicles with well-behaved propulsion mechanisms. I'd simply say they're inapplicable and go for the ordinary grapple rules, which DO cover this mechanic. Grab the horse and stop him by force majeure. Well, if this were the suggestion/home brew boards, I'd suggest simply adding the CMD of the carriage (11) to the CMD of the horse. And while the numbers seem to not look too unrealistic, it's certainly not RAW or rules worthy.
Orfamay Quest wrote: If the horse is successfully grappled, it will no longer be able to move on its next turn except by breaking the grapple. Okay. But I notice the CMD for horse is 17 - doesn't that seem a little low for this situation? (Horse is running, pulling a small carriage, player wants to basically grab it rodeo style to slow / stop the carriage) Given that the horse is at a full run and hauling this vehicle behind that has mass, shouldn't there be some adjustments to the CMD?
I guess what I was looking for were any rules describing a situation where a creature attempt to grapple another creature at a full run - basically, a tackle. Logically, it's much more difficult to grapple something moving fast than it is something standing still.
Thanks everyone for the advice / and help!
Indus wrote: Orfamay Quest wrote: If the horse is successfully grappled, it will no longer be able to move on its next turn except by breaking the grapple. Okay. But I notice the CMD for horse is 17 - doesn't that seem a little low for this situation? (Horse is running, pulling a small carriage, player wants to basically grab it rodeo style to slow / stop the carriage) Given that the horse is at a full run and hauling this vehicle behind that has mass, shouldn't there be some adjustments to the CMD?
I guess what I was looking for were any rules describing a situation where a creature attempt to grapple another creature at a full run - basically, a tackle. Logically, it's much more difficult to grapple something moving fast than it is something standing still.
Thanks everyone for the advice / and help! I've used my method for awhile, again, it's home brew, so rules nazis beware but. Adding a carriage to a horse gives it a CMD of 28. Which is tough for lower level characters, but not impossible for the Brock Samson's of the Pathfinder world.
InsaneFox wrote: I've used my method for awhile, again, it's home brew, so rules nazis beware but. Adding a carriage to a horse gives it a CMD of 28. Which is tough for lower level characters, but not impossible for the Brock Samson's of the Pathfinder world. Thanks Fox, I think I'll try that and see how it goes.
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