Trap the Soul - material component question

[bartleby1982]

Rules As Written (RAW) notes that, "A material component consists of one or more physical substances or objects that are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process." The text for Trap the Soul specifies that, "The gem holds the trapped entity indefinitely or until the gem is broken and the life force is released."

Does this mean that, unlike other spells, the material component for Trap the Soul is not annihilated in the casting process?

RAW notes that, "Items that have taken damage in excess of half their total hit points gain the broken condition, meaning they are less effective at their designated task. The broken condition has the following effects, depending upon the item..." Trap the Soul specifies the release condition for a soul is that the gem must be "broken."

Does this mean that a gem used as a material component for a Trap the Soul spell can potentially be repaired and reused after it has been broken?

[Isil-zha]

I am fairly certain that the term broken wrt the gem is not meant to mean the broken condition, but rather means that the gem needs to be destroyed.

[Hendelbolaf]

It has an "M" in the components line of the spell so it is a material component and so it is used up by the spell. If it were just a focus, then it would remain intact. So, sorry, but the gem is gone after the spell is cast. Whatever you want gone to be is fine, turned to dust , broken into useless fragments, or whatever. The main point being that there should be no way to get the value of the gem back.

[Weirdo]

Hendelbolaf is correct that there should be no way to get the value of the gem back. However, since the soul can be freed by breaking the gem, there must be an intact gem present and holding the soul after casting the spell. Dust or fragments don't fit.

Normally I think it'd be pretty cool for someone to wear jewelry containing the souls of their enemies, but if it's important that the gems be ruined by the casting, it would make sense for the casting process to turn the gems to glass or some essentially valueless mineral.

[LazarX]

bartleby1982 wrote:

Rules As Written (RAW) notes that, "A material component consists of one or more physical substances or objects that are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process." The text for Trap the Soul specifies that, "The gem holds the trapped entity indefinitely or until the gem is broken and the life force is released."

Does this mean that, unlike other spells, the material component for Trap the Soul is not annihilated in the casting process?

RAW notes that, "Items that have taken damage in excess of half their total hit points gain the broken condition, meaning they are less effective at their designated task. The broken condition has the following effects, depending upon the item..." Trap the Soul specifies the release condition for a soul is that the gem must be "broken."

Does this mean that a gem used as a material component for a Trap the Soul spell can potentially be repaired and reused after it has been broken?

No.. it's essentially used up. It continues to look as grand as it did while it holds it's captive soul, but once it's broken pretty much assume that it crumbles to worthless dust and blows away.

[bartleby1982]

Thanks for your responses!

Isil-zha, your position is that the game designers said broken but meant destroyed.

LazarX, it appears you concur with Isil-zha

Hendelbolaf and Weirdo, it appears your position is that the material component of the spell is annihilated after the spell is cast as opposed to annihilated during the casting process

Are your positions based on opinion, derived from a part of the RAW not mentioned in your post, or do they represent a common sense argument?

[Hendelbolaf]

Bartleby, the PRD says this about Material Components:

"Material (M): A material component consists of one or more physical substances or objects that are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process. Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible. Don't bother to keep track of material components with negligible cost. Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch."

I think "annihilated" means the gem is destroyed.

Edit: Maybe I am not sure of what you are asking. For this spell, the material body and life force are captured in the gem, so the gem is still intact at that point. If at any time the spell is ended, such as Dispel Magic, Antimagic, etc., then the gem is turned into dust and worthless.

If you want to know can you sell the gem for its face value with a life force still trapped in it. That is up for debate. Technically per the rules you should not be able to do that because the gem is supposed to "annihilated" upon casting of the spell, but then that would not leave much to keep the soul in, would it? I would suggest it is now just worthless some how through magic.

[bartleby1982]

Hi Hendelbolaf,

The PRD says the material components are annihilated "during the casting process." The spell has a casting time of one standard action or a trigger object. In either case, the text specifies the material component survives after the casting process is completed.

I could posit that the designers meant for the gems to be a focus instead of a material component based on the text of the spell, but I do not have supporting evidence from the RAW. Thus, that idea is based on opinion or an appeal to common sense.

To clarify my question: Is there evidence from the RAW that supports the idea of a material component becoming annihilated after the casting process is completed?

[Jorshamo]

Think of it like this: When you cast Trap the Soul, you "annihilate" it, in the sense that you no long have a usable gem for another casting of Trap the Soul. The gem is spent, gone, no longer there. What you then have is a gem with a soul in it. However, this can't be used as a component for Trap the Soul. If you were to get the soul out, you would have a freed soul and a smashed gem. This is a precedent set by spells like Bless Water or Fabricate Bullets, which have "Material Components" that aren't destroyed, per se, but still no long exist in their original incarnation.

[bartleby1982]

According to an online dictionary annihilate means;
To destroy completely
To reduce to nonexistence

The gem is not annihilated. It is a gem containing a soul until it is broken. The word "broken" is used twice in the description of the spell. The section for breaking items is titled "broken," and proceeds to describe what that means mechanically.

Bless Water has a material component of 5 pounds of powdered silver worth 25 gp. The spell turns regular water into holy water. How is this spell a precedent?

Fabricate Bullets actually appears to support the concept of re-using material components; the spell turns the material component into an item that can be used, sold, broken, etc.

[VRMH]

bartleby1982 wrote:

The gem is not annihilated. It is a gem containing a soul until it is broken.

What makes you think the gem which holds the soul, is the same gem which was the material component? The way I read the spell's description, it either creates a new gem holding the soul or the caster needs to provide a second stone. But the expensive gemstone goes *poof* when the spell is cast.

[bartleby1982]

I don't see any text or component of the RAW suggesting a new gem is created by the spell. I do agree that needing a second gemstone to hold the creature is a valid interpretation of the RAW.

[Jorshamo]

My bad on the Bless Water cite, I was misremembering the spell. As for Fabricate Bullets, though, I was mentioning it as an example of a spell that has priced material components, that are not "annihilated" when casting. The component still exists, but is not a valid component for a second casting of the spell, having been changed. Fabricate bullets doesn't, or at least, in my opinion, shouldn't, annihilate an entire pound of lead, then make bullets out of thin air. It simpler to assume it just reshapes the existing lead. Same deal for the soul gem.

As for the vague term of being broken, I am of the opinion that the soul gem needs to be outright destroy to free the soul, not just given the broken condition, and my earlier argument hinge on this. Compare the spell Break. This specifically calls out the "Broken Condition", unlike the Trap the Soul spell. Unfortunate wording (A carryover from 3.5), yes, but I think the two are separate.

[Weirdo]

Designating the gem as a Material Component rather than a Focus indicates that the gp value of the gem is supposed to be consumed or expended by the process as a balancing factor in casting the spell. Even if the spell indicates that a gem is still physically present after casting, the (M) designation says that the value of that gem is gone, not recoverable.

[bartleby1982]

Hi Jorshamo,

Fabricate bullets actually specifies that, "You convert 1 pound of lead into bullets." VRMH's interpretation would indicate that the 1 pound of lead indicated by the spell as a material component would become annihilated and a second pound of lead would be needed for the conversion process.

I don't think that's what the designers had in mind when they wrote the spell, but I have to categorize my thought here as opinion like I would similarly categorize Weirdo's assertion that the value of the gem, if not the gem itself, is gone. It just isn't supported by the RAW.