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I'm a simple guy that prefers simple classes, but I run a lot of games. This means I have to take the players' word when they tell me how their gunslinger/alchemist/summoner/etc. works.
I'm trying to pull together quick reference guides for GMs for some of the more complicated classes. The idea is to have a quick reference to help a GM deal with these classes without
a) slowing combat to a halt to figure out how everything is supposed to work or
b) letting the player set all the rules for their character
With respect to b), I'm not so much concerned with players cheating as I am with them misunderstanding rules and then propagating those misconceptions.
Since, as I said, I don't really understand these classes all that well, I'm looking for some help. Corrections and additions very much welcomed.
First up: the Gunslinger.
PFS only allows Early Firearms:
Buckler Gun, Coat Pistol, Dagger Pistol, Double-barreled Pistol, Dragon Pistol, Pepperbox, Pistol, Sword cane Pistol, Axe Musket, Blunderbuss, Double-barreled Musket, Fire Lance, Musket, Warhammer Musket (available starting weapons in bold)
Firearms are not on the always available list of purchases.
Touch AC:
Firearms target Touch AC when attacking within the weapon's first range increment.
Outside of the first range increment, the firearm targets normal AC, taking any penalties from extra range increments (maximum 5).
Misfires:
Firearms have a misfire value. If the die roll falls within this range, the weapon gains the broken condition.
Common Misfire ranges:
- Pistol: 1 (1 - 2 using alchemical paper cartridges)
- Musket: 1 - 2 (1 - 3 using alchemical paper cartridges)
- Double-barreled Pistol: 1 - 2 (1 - 3 using alchemical paper cartridges)
- Double-barreled Musket: 1 - 3 (1 - 4 using alchemical paper cartridges)
Ammunition:
(to-do)
Reloading:
- Reloading provokes AoOs.
- Reloading requires a free hand.
- You cannot normally load an early firearm underwater or fire any firearm underwater.
Common Reload times:
- One-handed Firearms: Standard Action (Move Action with Rapid Reload or Paper Cartridges, Free Action with Rapid Reload and Paper Cartridges)
- Two-handed Firearms: Full-Round Action (Standard Action with Rapid Reload or Paper Cartridges, Move Action with Rapid Reload and Paper Cartridges)
- Special: The Musket Master archetype allows a 3rd-level Gunslinger to treat a musket as a one-handed firearm as long as they have one point of grit)
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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Are you looking to have a thread for each of the troublesome classes, or all in this thread? I know nothing about summoners and would like to see a writeup on them.
As far as gunslingers go...
If someone can do a write-up explaining the TWF, Double-Barreled, Weapon-Corded monsters, it might be helpful to the GMs.
A musket master should not cause much trouble for a GM. He will occasionally do a strange shot type, but generally he will just shoot for big damage against a touch AC. Strong, but nice and simple.
The pistolero archetype has some strange wording on it that some will argue allows it to be combined with other archetypes. Wether it can or not is for another thread, but be prepared to rule one way or the other.
The Mysterious Stranger archetype uses charisma instead of wisdom. As such, it is often combined with other classes.
Gunslingers buy regular ammo at 10% of the cost. They buy alchemical cartridges at 50% of the cost.
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The pistolero archetype has some strange wording on it that some will argue allows it to be combined with other archetypes. Wether it can or not is for another thread, but be prepared to rule one way or the other.
The Mysterious Stranger archetype uses charisma instead of wisdom. As such, it is often combined with other classes.
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Mike has already said the evil Pistolero/Mysterious Blend isn't legal.
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Mike has already said the evil Pistolero/Mysterious Blend isn't legal.Has there ever been an official word on the gun training/pistol training double-dip damage? I can't find anything.
The last official word that I know of is this from Mike Brock:
What I will advise is it is a loophole that allows a very cheesy build. A large majority of people know it is a loophole. Do not be surprised when the loophole is closed through errata and we do not allow any type of rebuild. If you are abusing the combo now due to the loophole currently in place, do not complain when you do not get any form of rebuild what so ever in the future.
and that people using it had until March 31st of this year to rebuild out of it:
Sure. Everyone with this specific build who wants to rebuild it to make sure they stay away from being nerfed in the future have until March 31 to do so.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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Are you looking to have a thread for each of the troublesome classes, or all in this thread? I know nothing about summoners and would like to see a writeup on them.
As far as gunslingers go...
If someone can do a write-up explaining the TWF, Double-Barreled, Weapon-Corded monsters, it might be helpful to the GMs.
A musket master should not cause much trouble for a GM. He will occasionally do a strange shot type, but generally he will just shoot for big damage against a touch AC. Strong, but nice and simple.
The pistolero archetype has some strange wording on it that some will argue allows it to be combined with other archetypes. Wether it can or not is for another thread, but be prepared to rule one way or the other.
The Mysterious Stranger archetype uses charisma instead of wisdom. As such, it is often combined with other classes.
Gunslingers buy regular ammo at 10% of the cost. They buy alchemical cartridges at 50% of the cost.
In regards to this...
I'm personally of the opinion that the weapon cord doesn't do much, since you can't wield a new weapon while tied to the first. Some players push it, though.
The build basically requires the Gunslinger to have 2 double-barrelled pistols, plus rapid reload, rapid shot paper cartridges and two-weapon fighting.
The turn goes like this:
Standard action: Fire 2X double barreled pistols at a -8 each, producing 4 bullets.
Free action: Reload all 4 barrels using paper cartridges.
Rapid shot: Reshoot both double barreled pistols at -8 each.
(If the gunslinger is level 6+, they may have further shots due to their BAB.)
Move action: Reload all 4 barrels.
The downside is that you have to take a lot of feats and a lot of penalties to do this. The upshot is that you're hitting touch with each of those for 1d8+Dex damage.
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Here is Michael Brock's take on this:
Ok, I've dug out some of the conversation from the BC message board where we discussed this at length in almost 500 reply thread.
Double Barrel Pistol:
Most GM’s and people who create ranged characters, realize that precise shot is almost mandatory, even for gunslingers and alchemists (although I have yet to take it with my level 9 alchemist). This is even more true for the Double Barrel Pistol dual-wielding build.
The feats you need to make this worthwhile.
Rapid Reload
Point Blank Shot (to get Rapid and Precise)
Rapid Shot
Precise ShotOtherwise, you get the -4 for shooting both barrels as the same action. -4 for dual-wielding two one-handed weapons. -4 for the inevitable firing into melee penalty (unless precise shot is taken). +4 to target’s AC for the inevitable cover.
In almost every circumstance, cover and melee is an issue for ranged specialists. They have to specifically maneuver to avoid the cover, which often means they only get a single attack (two shots with a double barrel).
The above math shows, until you fight huge creatures with sub-10 touch AC’s, that these penalties balance the double barrel with the archer.
Additionally, remember, the weapon cord requires a swift action, not a free. As such, you can’t recover both pistols in the same round. The action for improved two-weapon fighting and rapid shot would look like:
Round 1: Fire P1 (both barrels), Fire P2 (both barrels), drop P1, reload P2, fire P2 (both barrels), reload P2, drop P2, recover P1, reload P1, fire P1 (both barrels), reload P1, fire P1 (both barrels), reload P1. That’s 10 shots where each is minimum -10 (-4 for firing both barrels, -4 for dual-wielding one-handed weapons, -2 for rapid shot). Assuming 20 Dex, that’s a +11 to hit, with the penalties of -10, that’s +1/+1/+1/+1/+1/+1/+1/+1/+1/+1
Round 2: Fire P1 (both barrels), reload P1, Fire P1 (both barrels), reload P1, Fire P1 (both barrels), drop P1, recover P2, fire P2 (both barrels), reload P2, fire P2 (both barrels). That’s 10 shots again.If you clarify that you can’t reload with weapon cords and assuming Quick Draw, it changes to:
Round 1: Fire P1 (both barrels), Fire P2 (both barrels)
Round 2: holster P2, reload P1, fire P1 (both barrels), reload P1
Round 3: holster P1, draw P2, fire P2 (both barrels, reload P2You get a huge 1st round, but after that, you actually gimp yourself with the build, it works better if after Round 1, you just drop P2 and use all your iterative for P1.
With iterative and rapid shot, at 11th level, you could get essentially 8 shots a round at -6 per shot (-4 for shooting both barrels in same action and -2 for rapid shot). That -6 is actually significant for most medium or smaller humanoids that aren’t heavily armored. When Touch ACs of Large and larger creatures moves towards 10 and lower, then the less that -6 matters. But then the more damage they can take. Also, these penalties don’t include the penalties for deadly aim. At 11th level, that -6 becomes a -9. For the Dual-Wielder the -10 becomes a -13. And this all doesn’t consider cover and melee if they choose not to take precise shot.
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The last official word that I know of is this from Mike Brock:
What I will advise is it is a loophole that allows a very cheesy build. A large majority of people know it is a loophole. Do not be surprised when the loophole is closed through errata and we do not allow any type of rebuild. If you are abusing the combo now due to the loophole currently in place, do not complain when you do not get any form of rebuild what so ever in the future.and that people using it had until March 31st of this year to rebuild out of it:
Sure. Everyone with this specific build who wants to rebuild it to make sure they stay away from being nerfed in the future have until March 31 to do so.
That's regarding the Pistolero/Mysterious Stranger build though. Yes Mike says it is based on a loophole but rather than closing the loophole in general he simply disallowed this specific archetype combination that relied on it.
I was told by someone that Mike had made a definitive "no" statement regarding the stacking of gun training and pistol training damage but I cannot find any such post or statement. Given how frequently I see this issue discussed I'm surprised it didn't make it into the latest changes in the FAQ.
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I was actually making an FAQ about Gunslingers some months ago, but with GMing and other IRL things coming up rapidly in such short order it went on the back burner. If you'd like, I can continue putting it together and probably get it up on these forums by tomorrow. There's a few things wrong with your FAQ that I can see.
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Second draft. Questions, comments, and thoughts welcome...
Ask the player three questions (for each firearm they plan to use):
- What's your range increment? (see Range Increments/Touch AC below)
- What's your misfire range? (see Misfires below)
- How fast can you reload? (see Reloading below)
- Optional 4th question: How big is your Grit pool? (see Grit below)
- Optional 5th question: Do you have Craft (Alchemy)? (see Ammunition below)
PFS only allows Early Firearms, specifically the following:
Buckler Gun, Coat Pistol, Dagger Pistol, Double-barreled Pistol, Dragon Pistol, Pepperbox, Pistol, Sword cane Pistol, Axe Musket, Blunderbuss, Double-barreled Musket, Fire Lance, Musket, Warhammer Musket (available starting weapons in bold)
Firearms are not on the always available list of purchases.
Firearms target Touch AC when attacking within the weapon's first range increment.
Outside of the first range increment, the firearm targets normal AC, taking any penalties from extra range increments (maximum 5).
Firearms have a misfire value. If the die roll falls within this range, the weapon gains the broken condition.
Using Alchemical Paper Cartridges will increase the Misfire Range for a firearm by 1.
First, your weapon gains the “broken” condition. While it has this condition, the weapon has the following:
- The weapon has a -2 penalty to attack rolls and damage.
- The weapon can only crit on a natural 20 and crits for double the damage, regardless of natural crit multiplier.
The weapon’s misfire value also increases by 4 (so if it only misfired on a natural 1, it now misfires on a roll of 1 to 5). If you have the Gun Training ability granted by the Gunslinger class, the value increases by 2 instead of 4.
When the weapon misfires, the attack is treated as having missed completely as normal.
Should the weapon misfire again, the weapon explodes. When this happens, you choose a corner of the square you inhabit. The weapon emits a gout of flame as it misfires, dealing damage equal to its normal damage to everyone in the weapon’s burst radius, including the wielder. A DC 12 Reflex save halves the damage. The burst size is noted in parentheses after the misfire value on the tables found in books. A weapon that explodes is unusable until it is fixed by either a Make Whole spell, or by using your Gunsmithing feat to repair it." H/T Quendishir
Common Misfire ranges:
- Pistol: 1 (1 - 2 using alchemical paper cartridges)
- Musket: 1 - 2 (1 - 3 using alchemical paper cartridges)
- Double-barreled Pistol: 1 - 2 (1 - 3 using alchemical paper cartridges)
- Double-barreled Musket: 1 - 3 (1 - 4 using alchemical paper cartridges)
Quick Clear
Gunslingers with the Quick Clear Deed (can be removed by Archetypes) can remove the broken condition as a Standard action provided they have at least one point in their Grit pool. They can also spend a point to clear as a Move action.
There are other methods of clearing a misfire, but they fall outside the scope of this guide.
A normal shot from a gun will cost 11gp (10gp for Black Powder and 1gp for a bullet). Gunslingers with one rank in Craft (Alchemy) can reduce this to 1gp,1sp.
A normal Alchemical Paper Cartridge will cost 12gp (6gp with Craft(Alchemy)).
Black Powder: 10gp (1gp for a Gunslinger)
Regular Bullet: 1gp (1sp for a...)
Cold Iron Bullet: 2gp (2sp for...)
Adamantine Bullet: 61gp (6gp, 1sp)
30 Mithral Bullets: 280gp (28gp)
10 Ghost Salted Bullets: 210gp (201gp)
Paper Cartridge: 12gp (6gp)
Cold Iron Paper Cartridge: 24gp (12gp)
Adamantine Paper Cartridge: 72gp (36gp)
Elysian Bronze Paper Cartridge: 32gp (16gp)
Dry Load Paper Cartridge: 72gp (36gp)
Mithral Paper Cartridge: 262gp (131gp)
H/T Nefreet
Reloading provokes AoOs.
Reloading requires a free hand.
You cannot normally load an early firearm underwater or fire any firearm underwater.
Common Reload times:
- One-handed Firearms: Standard Action (Move Action with Rapid Reload or Paper Cartridges, Free Action with Rapid Reload and Paper Cartridges)
- Two-handed Firearms: Full-Round Action (Standard Action with Rapid Reload or Paper Cartridges, Move Action with Rapid Reload and Paper Cartridges)
- Special: The Musket Master archetype allows a 3rd-level Gunslinger to treat a musket as a one-handed firearm as long as they have one point of grit)
Grit is a limited resource, like a Monk's Ki or Magus' Arcane Pool. Gunslingers will spend Grit points to perform Deeds, such as quick-clearing their weapon (effectively repairing it after a misfire) or adding damage. The mechanics of the various Deeds are outside the scope of this guide.
Gunslingers can regain a point of Grit when
- When you confirm a critical hit, you are refunded 1 Grit;
- When you reduce the hit points of a creature to 0 or less, you are refunded 1 Grit if their total hit dice are at least equal to half your character level;
- When you perform a dangerous act (“Daring Deed”), your GM can refund you 1 Grit. This is not authorized for Pathfinder Society Organized Play. H/T Quendishir
Common sources of damage for a Gunslinger include, but are not limited to:
- Point Blank Shot: +1 damage (within 30 ft of target)
- Deadly Aim: +2 damage (+4 at BAB 4, +6 at BAB 6, +8 at BAB 12, with attack penalties similar to Power Attack)
- Gun Training: +DEX modifier to damage (starting at 5th level for most Gunslingers)
- Vital Strike: Roll die damage twice (Standard Attack only)
- Dead Shot: Roll multiple attacks for one shot as if it were a Full Attack, rolling damage dice for each hit and then adding any damage modifiers (costs 1 grit point, available at level 7 for most Gunslingers, takes a Full Round action)
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It clearly specifies in the feat that it doesn't apply to touch attacks but almost all the gunslingers I've seen use it regardless.
That's because the rules for firearms explicitly specify that the statement that Deadly Aim can't be used with touch attacks doesn't apply here:
Early Firearms: When firing an early firearm, the attack resolves against the target's touch AC when the target is within the first range increment of the weapon, but this type of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim.
Emphasis mine.
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You've got the wrong price on the mithral ammo. For a gunslinger, it should be 0.52 per shot, and 14.33 per paper cartridge.
I will likely just remove both items from the final draft. There's no official price for either item, and the rules are too ambiguous for me to authoritatively state what the pricing should be.
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I play a Pistolero/cavalier who is now levels 7/3 so I am pretty up to scratch when it comes to the rules now.
One thing you have missed is scatter weapons, which again have different rules.
I am at work at the moment, but once I get home I will throw something together for them as well as look at any other points I have come up against.
I applaud what you are doing, because as a GM I am lost as well sometimes with the new classes, my particular bugbear being the alchemist. This is why, when I create a new PFS char, I choose one of the new classes to know how to play it (got my Wayang Grenadier on deck).
Swiss
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Ok back at home.
Note the following, a Paper Cartridge costs 11 gp, 12 gp with a bullet or a pellet.
When loading a Paper Cartridge with different types of bullet/pellet the cost will be 11gp + the cost of the bullet so the costs you have for special metal bullets are incorrect, for ex:
Cold Iron Paper Cartridge: 13 gp (6gp 5sp)
Adamantine Paper Cartridge: 72 gp (12gp 1sp)
(Here I have extrapolated the cost of the cartridge from the rules)
Paper Cartridges must be prepared with the correct bullets/pellets in advance, so if a character has X number of Cartridges, once they have used them all, they are back to loading black powder and bullets/pellets by hand.
For example, my Pistolero has, in general:
40 Paper Cartridges, bullet
20 Cold Iron Paper Cartridge
10 Adamantine Paper Cartridge
After that he is back to powder and bullet loading.
Also, if the character does not have powder horns, the black powder is subject to fire rules, if it explodes the damage is 1d6 per 20 doses in a 20ft radius (Well the rules give 100 doses=keg and keg explodes for 5d6 damage).
One powder horn holds 10 doses.
Scatter weapons shoot pellets in a 15ft cone and will hit every target in that cone, on a misfire it is an automatic miss.
Scatter weapons have special ammunition:
Alchemical cartridge, dragon’s breath 40 gp (20 gp)
Alchemical cartridge, entangling shot 40 gp (20 gp)
Alchemical cartridge, salt shot 12 gp (6 gp)
Scatter weapons can also fire normal bullets.
Both types of firearms (Scatter/Non-scatter) can fire:
Alchemical cartridge, flare 10 gp (5 gp)
If fired from a scatter weapon the Misfire is +1 from a non-scatter it is +2 and this cartridge will only target on creature.
Weapon Blanch can be applied to bullets/pellets and Alchemical cartridges (well the bullets/pellets in them).
Think that about covers it.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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Blanches being applied to Alchemical Cartridges is controversial. Not all GM's allow it (I don't, and I'm one of the most liberal gun-rulers out there.)
Not putting a definitive cost on the mithral is probably a good call, Redward.
A trick that high level gunslingers will sometimes use: Abundant Ammunition. It's a spell that will replace whatever ammo they take out of the bag, at the beginning of their next round. It has odd intereactions with magic, that I don't remember right now.
What to know about it: It lasts 1 minute per level. If it's from a wand, that's 1 minute. Keep track of it.
It replaces at the beginning of the round. Not instantainiously. If they are shooting multible times per round, they will still need enough ammo in the pouch for the full round.
Who can cast it: bard, cleric/oracle, range, sorcerer/wizard. No Inquisitors, witches, or druids. Or (obviously) melee classes. However, some gunslingers will use the cracked vibrant purple ioun stone or a ring of spell storing to get around this. It will still take them a standard action to get it running, then someone else will have to wand the stone again before they can use it again.
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Thanks guys. I think I'm going to move non-standard ammunition and things like Abundant Ammunition and Jury Rig into some kind of appendix.
I really want to keep the main guide as concise as possible to give GMs the basics. I can't prepare them for every contingency, but I'm hoping to help them recognize basic issues (like someone using Rapid Shot with a Musket at level 1).
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Blanches being applied to Alchemical Cartridges is controversial. Not all GM's allow it (I don't, and I'm one of the most liberal gun-rulers out there.)
Why is it controversial? And why don't you allow it, despite being a "liberal GM?" Blanch is applied to bullet, bullet is made into cartridge. What is the problem? A paper cartridge is just a bullet and a dose of black powder wrapped up in paper and sealed. Since gunslingers can make their own alchemical cartridges, and weapon blanches have been ruled to carry over from scenario to scenario once applied, why is there an argument at all? Do you believe that the weapon blanch has to be applied to the completed cartridge for some reason, and ruling that the heat necessary to apply the blanch cooks off the round?
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Blanches being applied to Alchemical Cartridges is controversial. Not all GM's allow it (I don't, and I'm one of the most liberal gun-rulers out there.)
Not putting a definitive cost on the mithral is probably a good call, Redward.
Personally I will explain to the GM as following.
I blanch the bullets first and then I craft the paper cartridges using the blanched ammunition, especially as my gunslinger has more than one rank in Craft Alchemy.
As I GM I would say that you could not blanch already prepared cartridges as this would cook them off.
As for Mithral bullets, well I much prefer to use sliver blanched bullets, much cheaper.
Abundant Ammunition wands, have to put ranks in UMD or multi-class it you want to be effective.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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They are controversial because you are not allowed to 'craft' the cartridges in society play. You buy them at a discount - pre-made. Trying to put the blanch on after assembly cooks them off. I would love to have blanched cartridges, but I've seen enough threads about it already that I'm not going to try it. Too much possibility for table variation. I like seeing firearms at a table, and try for the most inclusive rulings on them whenever I can. I'd like to see every spell and item that's made for bows work on all ranged weapons. But this is PFS - once something is laid down, all you can do is lobby for them to overturn the rule.
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They are controversial because you are not allowed to 'craft' the cartridges in society play. You buy them at a discount - pre-made. Trying to put the blanch on after assembly cooks them off. I would love to have blanched cartridges, but I've seen enough threads about it already that I'm not going to try it. Too much possibility for table variation. I like seeing firearms at a table, and try for the most inclusive rulings on them whenever I can. I'd like to see every spell and item that's made for bows work on all ranged weapons. But this is PFS - once something is laid down, all you can do is lobby for them to overturn the rule.
So what is to stop you buying pre-made blanched cartridges?
So far I have found nothing in the rules that says you are not able to, as matter of fact under the rules I think I could do it like this.
Buy 10 bullets.
Upgrade to 10 blanched bullets.
Upgrade to 10 blanched paper cartridges.
In some respects we would need a ruling on this, but not in this thread.
Has this been discussed before?
Edit: Ok found the ruling
So no blanchs on alchemical cartridges, have load them by hand.
Swiss
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Ok back at home.
Note the following, a Paper Cartridge costs 11 gp, 12 gp with a bullet or a pellet.
When loading a Paper Cartridge with different types of bullet/pellet the cost will be 11gp + the cost of the bullet so the costs you have for special metal bullets are incorrect, for ex:
Cold Iron Paper Cartridge: 13 gp (6gp 5sp)
Adamantine Paper Cartridge: 72 gp (12gp 1sp)(Here I have extrapolated the cost of the cartridge from the rules)
This is wrong; the prices given by redward are correct. You just use the base costs for a cartridge and apply the modifier for the special material; you don't reverse-engineer the component costs. Confirmation from Mike Brock.
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You've got the wrong price on the mithral ammo. For a gunslinger, it should be 0.52 per shot, and 14.33 per paper cartridge.I will likely just remove both items from the final draft. There's no official price for either item, and the rules are too ambiguous for me to authoritatively state what the pricing should be.
There are three possibilities regarding Mithral ammunition. One is totally legal, one is not, and one is up in the air.
Legal: a set of 30 Mithral bullets costs a Gunslinger 28gp.
30 bullets weigh 1/2 pound, and cost 30gp. Mithral items cost +500gp/pound (or +250gp for 1/2 pound). Half a pound of Mithral bullets would cost 280gp (or 28gp for a Gunslinger).
Illegal: purchasing one Mithral bullet.
Just as you cannot purchase one Mithral arrow (you must buy them in sets of 20), the price for a set of 30 Mithral bullets cannot be "broken up" to determine the price of one.
Up in the air: a Mithral paper cartridge costs a Gunslinger 131gp.
The FAQ states that Mithral melee weapons with a listed weight of "-" weigh 1/2 pound for purposes of Mithral pricing. Some people extrapolate this to mean ammunition with a listed weight of "-" might also be included. Since we already know the weight of bullets, but not cartridges, we can apply this math to the pricing of a Mithral paper cartridge. 250gp (Mithral) + 12gp (cartridge) = 262gp, or 131gp for a Gunslinger.