Defender of the Society Trait AC Bonus - Applies to Touch and / or Flat-Footed AC?


Rules Questions


9 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

This is a fairly simple question, but one that I think could use some clarification. (In this case, please his the FAQ button.)

For FAQ purposes, I will word the question as so:

"Does the Defender of the Society trait add its AC Bonus to both Touch AC and Flat-Footed AC?"

As for discussion, the RAW says that this trait provides a +1 Trait Bonus to the character's AC when using Medium or Heavy armor. (As a somewhat related question, if the armor is made of Mithril, does this mean that a Mithril Breastplate is considered light armor and thusly does not receive the AC bonus the trait grants? Anyway...)

The Core cites examples as to what AC Bonuses would also apply to Touch and/or Flat-Footed AC. Trait bonuses (which are quite unheard of) are not listed under any of them, meaning RAW it wouldn't.

But the intent still seems unclear, since in all of the Hardcover Rulebooks, there is no such thing as a Trait Bonus to AC, meaning such a case wasn't really needed to be listed. The source of which this trait comes from is Paizo, so it's not like it's a 3rd Party Material issue.

Any discussion or previous FAQ entries would be appreciated. Again, please hit the FAQ button so I know how this should be ruled. Thanks in advance!

*Edit: Grammar/Spelling Corrections.*


I believe since this is supposed to be based on armor that it would be Armor and Flat footed AC and not Touch.


Touch AC and Flat-footed AC are derived from regular AC. Touch AC is defined as your regular AC minus shield and armor bonuses, and flat-footed AC is defined as your regular AC minus dodge/Dexterity bonuses.

There's no question here.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

IMO, It's a Trait bonus so it adds to Flatfooted and Touch.

The only bonus type that are not added to Flatfooted AC, generally, are DEX and Dodge, so Trait bonuses would be added.

The only bonus types that are not added to Touch AC, generally, are Armour, Natural Armour, and Shield, so Trait bonuses would be added.

Silver Crusade

I believe Oladon and Quantum Steve are correct, but I'd like to see proof. I don't think it actually says that outright in the Core Rulebook. Barring any response from Paizo, that's how I'd treat it, though.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

"Proof"? You mean, more than:

PRD: Combat wrote:
When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn't include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally.

... and...

PRD: Conditions wrote:
A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC...

In both cases it's exceedingly clear that you're subtracting something from your regular AC. Your regular AC includes the trait bonus.

Silver Crusade

Ok, I was misremembering. I think maybe I was thinking of the argument about whether this trait applies to CMD.

Sovereign Court

A trait bonus would apply to your CMD as it isn't a shield, armour or natural armour bonus.


Morgen wrote:
A trait bonus would apply to your CMD as it isn't a shield, armour or natural armour bonus.

No, trait bonuses do not apply to CMD. Please look again at how CMD is determined.

Sovereign Court

I'd suggest in the future linking to a relevant source material or something rather then your own thread asking the same question as that would be more useful.

I don't see the issue with allowing it but it does appear from the listing in the combat chapter that CMD is unusually specific about what it allows so I'll take back what I said. Looks like alchemical bonuses are also disallowed too.

I suppose in the end specific inclusion is easier for people not to misunderstand then exclusion. Bit annoying that the wording isn't very forward thinking but that's what the core rulebook is like some times.


Morgen wrote:
I'd suggest in the future linking to a relevant source material or something rather then your own thread asking the same question as that would be more useful.

Did you notice the "answered in the FAQ" at the top of the thread I linked? And the link to said FAQ at the bottom? Has nothing to do with it being "my thread".

Liberty's Edge

Traits did not exist at the time of the writing of the CRB, so you're not going to find reference to it.

Personally, since it is a trait bonus that is directly predicated on the armor that you're wearing, the trait bonus applies in those situations in which you calculate the armor bonus (normal AC and flat-footed AC) and it doesn't apply in those situations in which you don't calculate the armor bonus (touch AC).

I don't believe the text in the touch AC description regarding "all other modifiers" is a global inclusion, because there could certainly be miscellanious modifiers that directly apply to armor, shield, or natural armor bonuses and you wouldn't calculate them into the touch AC. I believe this particular trait bonus falls into that situation in that it modifies the armor bonus and is not a "generic" bonus.

I understand the other side of the argument (the ambiguous nature of the wording of the trait), but I believe the specific requirements in which you receive the bonus precludes this.


RAI it should add a trait bonus to your armor bonus (similar to an enhancement bonus to armor), but by the RAW it applies to AC for all purposes.

Liberty's Edge

RAW is a joke of a term. I wish people would stop using it.


HangarFlying wrote:
RAW is a joke of a term. I wish people would stop using it.

Hmm that seems to have touched a nerve... a RAW nerve at that :)


Crash_00 wrote:
RAI it should add a trait bonus to your armor bonus (similar to an enhancement bonus to armor), but by the RAW it applies to AC for all purposes.

Why not, I'll raise this thread from the dead, since it hasn't really been answered yet.

There is no RAW that says a Trait Bonus to AC applies to all forms of it. Hence the FAQ thread I made.

Hangar makes a good point with the intent of the feat, though there are features from archetypes that provide the feature that he says the trait lacks. Simultaneously, it's not exactly considered an Armor or Shield bonus to AC, it's a Trait Bonus.

If the Trait said something like "When wearing Medium or Heavy Armor, its total armor bonus is increased by 1," then the intent would be clear, but it doesn't, and isn't.

Is there any other input that could concretely define the answer?

Grand Lodge

Since the trait bonus is armor dependent (since you only get it while wearing medium or heavy armor), whatever would defeat the armor bonus to AC would defeat this trait bonus as well.


It's utterly clear that Trait bonuses and any other AC bonus applies to Touch AC, as Touch AC is derived from normal AC just specifying exactly what DOESN'T apply. That is the opposite of CMD which explicitly specifies what DOES apply (not mentioning Untyped or Trait bonuses). That the bonus only kicks in when wearing certain types of armor is irrelevant for whether it is bypassed by attacks which can bypass Armor Bonus, just as much as a Deflection Bonus that only kicks in when wearing Armor isn't bypassed by said attacks. If it was meant to work exactly like Armor Bonus it would say so, or simply modify your Armor Bonus, e.g. increase Armor Bonus by N (as several effects do, especially for specific purposes e.g. Crit Confirmation).

As to the other question, whether you can benefit from this Trait bonus in Mithral Medium Armor, I would hesitantly say YES, based on the actual rules for Mithral Armor:

Quote:
Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations.

I would read that as limitations on YOU (the wearer), which doesn't exist here.

Although I guess you could view the pre-reqs of the Trait as a limitation on when the Trait Bonus applies...
In that case, it should work identically to trying to add a Medium Armor-only Enhancement, which IMHO works with Mithral Medium Armor.
If you really want to know, that should probably be a separate FAQ thread...

BTW, I find the Paizo responce 'already answered in FAQ' apparently referencing the entry on Duelist Dodge Bonus (Errata'd from Untyped) as just terribly lacking. If a FAQ is meant to address a general issue, it needs to address the general issue and not just speak about specific case. In this case that FAQ is even more obtuse because the Errata removed the issue for the given case (Duelist), so there is one more logical leap that the reader is required to make to apply it to the other question (Trait to CMD)... In other words, Paizo seemingly expects that FAQ to suffice to indicate that Trait doesn't apply to CMD because the FAQ says the Duelist bonus DOES apply to CMD because it was Errata'd to be a Dodge bonus. That's just ridiculously indirect, and if somebody can make that leap then they don't really need a FAQ in addition to the RAW in the first place.

If Paizo wants their FAQs to be broadly helpful, the the point that they can cite them for related questions, they should just spell things it out in the most helpful way possible... If you want to put it objectively, the FAQ should be understandable at a lower reading comprehension level than the rulebook. Post-Errata Duelist Dodge Bonus is no longer really the best example for that case, so using it as the example is no longer the best example even if it might seem 'convenient' for somebody at Paizo to re-use the same FAQ question. If they want to helpfully address the broader question, the FAQ should say "yes, really, only the bonus types explicitly mentioned in CMD apply to it. no other types apply to CMD, meaning Untyped, Trait, etc [all the ones Paizo can think of] and any others don't apply to it."

Sczarni

I think Oladon pointed us to the answer in Post #6.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
"Does the Defender of the Society trait add its AC Bonus to both Touch AC and Flat-Footed AC?"

Yes, it does. See the text from above:

Combat wrote:
When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn't include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally.
Conditions wrote:
A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC and Combat Maneuver Defense (CMD) (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity, unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat or Uncanny Dodge class ability.

There isn't a Touch AC stat, nor is there a flat-footed AC stat. There is only your AC, and modifications to it. What leads you to believe that this trait doesn't apply?

Quote:
The Core cites examples as to what AC Bonuses would also apply to Touch and/or Flat-Footed AC. Trait bonuses (which are quite unheard of) are not listed under any of them, meaning RAW it wouldn't.

The terms "Touch AC" and "Flat-Footed AC" are not used once in any part of the Core Rulebook. That is merely on your character sheet to make it easier to calculate during combat. You only have one AC stat.

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