RAW, magi that use spell combat do not get an extra attack from haste even though any other two-weapon fighter does. Let's set aside for the moment whether this was an intentional omission or the unintentional result of making spell combat its own full round action.
Let's say a magus discovers a version of haste that also grants the magus an extra attack when using spell combat.
Would this be overpowered? If so, why?
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To see if it is overpowered you need to answer some question first.
How it is worded?
That allow it to be stacked with the regular haste/blessing of fervor/other similar abilities when the magus is not using spell combat?
What happen if the magus cast it using spell combat? He get the extra attack the round in which it is cast?
How it work when combined with other abilities that give extra attacks, like bladed dash? (more a problem of bladed dash+magus instead of bladed dash+bard, but you are adding another factor in the equation).
How it interact with all other form of combat that aren't full attack but are full round action? It allow a extra attack on a charge? Full defense?
What happen when you are using standard action like maintaining a grapple?
Intention can be clear, making something that work outside of your home rules where the GM e the spell creator can agree on the limit of the spell and correct it if needed isn't so simple.
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No, it would not be overpowered.
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Considering how many people ran it this way before the FAQ came down, and how I've never heard anyone complain about it...
Nope.
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Considering how many people ran it this way before the FAQ came down, and how I've never heard anyone complain about it...
Nope.
The problem is that people run it that way on the assumption that it was a form of full attack.
Lord Pendragon version of the spell is meant to give the extra attack to someone that is not using a full attack action (all the other effects of haste work perfectly even when using spell combat), so he need to resolve all the possible conflicts with other rules.Probably it would be simpler for the GM to say that spell combat is a full attack action and give him what he want without generating possible dangerous synergies with other kinds of actions.
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Considering how many people ran it this way before the FAQ came down, and how I've never heard anyone complain about it...
Nope.
The problem is that people run it that way on the assumption that it was a form of full attack.
Lord Pendragon version of the spell is meant to give the extra attack to someone that is not using a full attack action (all the other effects of haste work perfectly even when using spell combat)
"this spell works like haste except it also gives an extra attack with a magus' spell combat ability"
Not OP, that faq is a silly and unintuitive rule
OK, so when he cast it the magus is hasted only when using spell combat?
Or even when making a full attack?It work only on maguses or it work as a regular haste on other people?
How it work in conjunction with other spells that give extra attack that a magus can cast using spell combat?
It is not as clear cut as you try to make it.
Any of those questions need a answer to judge the spell.
Having run the Magus, I feel it is appropriate not to grant an extra attack from haste or the like. They are powerful enough with the ability to cast and take all their melee attacks.
Ditto Raith Shadar.
At low levels it might not be a big deal, but at higher levels were they are already almost keeping up with a fighter (in damage/hit per attack) and can get off a spell and a extra attack I can't see how this would be a good plan.
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"this spell works like haste except it also gives an extra attack with a magus' spell combat ability"
Not OP, that faq is a silly and unintuitive rule
OK, so when he cast it the magus is hasted only when using spell combat?
Or even when making a full attack?
It work only on maguses or it work as a regular haste on other people?How it work in conjunction with other spells that give extra attack that a magus can cast using spell combat?
It is not as clear cut as you try to make it.
Any of those questions need a answer to judge the spell.
I don't see how Erikkerik's phrasing is less than clear cut. The spell would act exactly as Haste except that in addition to the normal effects it also allows an extra attack in the very specific situation of a magus using spell combat. If your question is anything other than "can I use it for spell combat?" the answer is "it works like Haste."
- No, the magus isn't only Hasted using spell combat, because they still get the normal effects of Haste (which don't require spell combat to work)
- Yes, it works with a normal full attack (like Haste)
- Yes, it works on non-maguses. They do not get the bonus "extra attack when using spell combat," but they get all the normal bonuses of Haste Because the proposed spell would act exactly like Haste except it wouldn't be limited by the FAQ saying it doesn't work with spell combat.
Given that, why go to the trouble of making a new spell? Why not just house-rule that Haste works with spell combat? If it's balanced, it's balanced to treat Haste like that. If it's unbalanced, the spell should have further alterations to balance it (like not improving your speed, or not giving you +1 to attacks, AC and reflex saves).
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I'm not sure if a spell like that would be overpowered - the community seems to be pretty far from a consensus on whether or not the FAQ ruling was necessary in the first place. That said, I think the only question to answer is based on the idea that the FAQ was necessary and Haste must therefore be the baseline of power for this sort of thing.
Working from that premise, I'd say, in order to balance such a spell with Haste, it needs to be not quite as good in some way other than the extra attack. I don't think it's too overpowered, but it would be definitively better than Haste, at least for the magus who's supposedly casting it, so it needs some kind of tweak. A higher spell level seems like a bit much, but maybe fewer targets affected, or perhaps a shorter duration, is in order.
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- No, the magus isn't only Hasted using spell combat, because they still get the normal effects of Haste (which don't require spell combat to work)
- Yes, it works with a normal full attack (like Haste)
- Yes, it works on non-maguses. They do not get the bonus "extra attack when using spell combat," but they get all the normal bonuses of Haste Because the proposed spell would act exactly like Haste except it wouldn't be limited by the FAQ saying it doesn't work with spell combat.
Given that, why go to the trouble of making a new spell? Why not just house-rule that Haste works with spell combat? If it's balanced, it's balanced to treat Haste like that. If it's unbalanced, the spell should have further alterations to balance it (like not improving your speed, or not giving you +1 to attacks, AC and reflex saves).
You have forgot the last question:
* How it work in conjunction with other spells that give extra attack that a magus can cast using spell combat?Your finals suggestion is exactly what I suggested. Way simpler and clear cut.
Edit:
Still it can allow for a ungodly number of attacks:
Full attack
+1 for haste
+1 for spellstrike
+1 for spellstrike with a quickened spell.
It is a burst combo, but it would allow for 4 attack at maximum bonus. There is some other class that can do that?
Hmm. One argument that seems to be here is that the extra attack is too overpowered at mid/high levels. This is because the Magus gets so much out of it. What do you fellows think of the argument that Rogues and Vivisectionists also get a great deal of use out of an extra attack, and they are allowed to use Haste?
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Hmm. One argument that seems to be here is that the extra attack is too overpowered at mid/high levels. This is because the Magus gets so much out of it. What do you fellows think of the argument that Rogues and Vivisectionists also get a great deal of use out of an extra attack, and they are allowed to use Haste?
See my edit. There is some other class that can get 4 attacks at his maximum bonus with its primary weapon?
Maybe a hasted monk using flurry of blows and spending ki point. If I recall correctly the attack he get from the ki point expenditure is in addition to the attack he get from haste.
Like Rossi said, and don't forget he can get one extra attack almost every round from about 2nd level on without using any resources. Arcane Mark, Spell Combat, and Spellstrike are all you need, and almost any magus has them by default at 2nd level.
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Not overpowered at all. I thought the FAQs was silly and unneeded myself. I guess I could ask what's so terrifying about a 3/4 BAB class making an additional attack on you without additional modifiers built into the class. Was already using haste with it before the FAQs and it wasn't overpowered in my experience.
So you don't think a class that gets four attacks, one of them with an added spell hit, getting five attacks, same as a lvl 16 or higher fighter isn't overpowered?
The Magus I run often boosts his hit chance with heroism and he has a +5 weapon long before the other characters can come close to getting one.
So you don't think a class that gets four attacks, one of them with an added spell hit, getting five attacks, same as a lvl 16 or higher fighter isn't overpowered?
Me? personally? I don't. The magus has a lower to hit and he's effectively using two weapon fighting. A rogue hasted and using two weapon fighting at level 10 gets four, the magus gets 10. The Rogue is obviously OP because he's getting a full 5 hits off, 3 at full BAB! The magus will never get additional offhand iteratives mind you. He's dual wielding a single attack with a spell and his full attack.
I think something your missing is that the magus isn't just getting four attacks. The magus normally has 2 when he full attacks without haste. When hasted he gets 3, same as anyone else. He's dual wielding when he uses spell combat though, take that into consideration. Compare him to a fighter using TWF and being hasted.
So you don't think a class that gets four attacks, one of them with an added spell hit, getting five attacks, same as a lvl 16 or higher fighter isn't overpowered?Me? personally? I don't. The magus has a lower to hit and he's effectively using two weapon fighting. A rogue hasted and using two weapon fighting at level 10 gets four, the magus gets 10. The Rogue is obviously OP because he's getting a full 5 hits off, 3 at full BAB! The magus will never get additional offhand iteratives mind you. He's dual wielding a single attack with a spell and his full attack.
I think something your missing is that the magus isn't just getting four attacks. The magus normally has 2 when he full attacks without haste. When hasted he gets 3, same as anyone else. He's dual wielding when he uses spell combat though, take that into consideration. Compare him to a fighter using TWF and being hasted.
The Fighter and Rogue don't seem to do as much damage. The Magus has a lot of ways to boost damage not available to the rogue and fighter. I think the extra attack for both of them makes up or that.
The Fighter and Rogue don't seem to do as much damage. The Magus has a lot of ways to boost damage not available to the rogue and fighter. I think the extra attack for both of them makes up or that.
The rogue is also subpar compared to almost every other class. Not a totally fair comparison. Do you have proof that a 10th level magus is doing consistently more damage than the fighter? Or do you just want to compare the number of attacks of a magus to a high level unhasted fighter. I was just talking about the number of attacks.
I find that magi don't really benefit all that much more from additional attacks since their main source of DPR is the spellstrike riders. The basic attack is usually somewhat lackluster compared to the basic attack of other frontliners.
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- No, the magus isn't only Hasted using spell combat, because they still get the normal effects of Haste (which don't require spell combat to work)
- Yes, it works with a normal full attack (like Haste)
- Yes, it works on non-maguses. They do not get the bonus "extra attack when using spell combat," but they get all the normal bonuses of Haste Because the proposed spell would act exactly like Haste except it wouldn't be limited by the FAQ saying it doesn't work with spell combat.
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Still it can allow for a ungodly number of attacks:
Full attack
+1 for haste
+1 for spellstrike
+1 for spellstrike with a quickened spell.It is a burst combo, but it would allow for 4 attack at maximum bonus. There is some other class that can do that?
This is off of the top of my head:
The Summoner, well technically his or her Eidolon can do so easily. Quadraped with claw/claw/bite. All are primary attacks. Hasted it makes four.
Druid in an appropriate wild shape.
Barbarian can come close...beast totem grants two primary (claws) and 1 secondary (bite).
I'm sure there are others. Never had a magus dominate any game session, still looking for one that does so. (I've read about the Bladebound Hexcrafter nice fluff...)
Two post below the one you cited I did put down a better version of the question:
"There is some other class that can get 4 attacks at his maximum bonus with its primary weapon?"
Sure the druid can make multiple natural weapons attacks at the same BAB, but not with their best weapon at full bonus. They are using natural weapons often with a limited enhancement.
The eidolon ... well, it is a eidolon. It is so full of exceptions and personalized rules that it is on a different graph from all other classes.
"There is some other class that can get 4 attacks at his maximum bonus with its primary weapon?"
Not even magus get that innately. The example of someone doing it is using 2 spells and a buff(a 3rd level buff and a spell quickened spell. That's a high level spell slot and usually not a lot to spare). Your not going to see that all the time out of the magus. The closest your going to get is natural attacks though I think. Of which a barbarian can easily get four at full BAB while raging and pouncing... Ouch. 6 if he's a flying assimar. All of which are buffed by a single item + rage.
Anyways, just because you make a lot of attacks doesn't mean your going to hit or that you'll hit hard. Definitely doesn't mean your OP or anything.
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Considering the Magus is still getting all the other bonuses of hast (well not really the +movement speed but the bonus to hit and the bonuses to reflex saves) it isn't like it's a waste on them.
Not ever round needs to be a 'nova' round either. Some times a few swings with a weapon are more then enough.
I guess my answer is it shouldn't matter either way and if they're already getting an extra attack there isn't much reason to give them two when no one else gets two either.
I guess my answer is it shouldn't matter either way and if they're already getting an extra attack there isn't much reason to give them two when no one else gets two either.
The magus isn't getting an additional attack from spell strike. I don't know where people get that from. They're effectively using TWF with spell and sword. That's the point of the class. Everyone who does TWF gets an extra attack at -2, then gets iteratives for feats.
He can use spell strike without spell combat, but the point is that getting your normal attacks at -2, an extra at highest bonus, and a spell off seems like enough. I'm running a 12th level magus right now and letting him have an extra attack would range from a little OP to flat out stupid depending on the how he is spelled up that day. I'm sure there are builds that depend more on spells and less on attacks that it would be fine with, or parties that buff each other less, but looking at the group as a whole I don't think there is any way you can't say it would create a lot of OP builds. And if you are comparing it to a Druid, that is sort of like saying you want it to be OP.
The Fighter and Rogue don't seem to do as much damage. The Magus has a lot of ways to boost damage not available to the rogue and fighter. I think the extra attack for both of them makes up or that.The rogue is also subpar compared to almost every other class. Not a totally fair comparison. Do you have proof that a 10th level magus is doing consistently more damage than the fighter? Or do you just want to compare the number of attacks of a magus to a high level unhasted fighter. I was just talking about the number of attacks.
Yes. I do have proof. I ran a fighter with a magus at the same time. The Magus was vastly outdamaging the fighter up to level 6.
Now this was not a damage build fighter. It was a one-handed AC build fighter. So we're talking twice as much damage per round, possibly more.
I do think a two-hander fighter at higher level may be able to keep up. Not sure a two-weapon fighter would be able to keep up given how high your dex has to be, which hampers your strength. Not to mention two-weapon fighters require a heavy investment in feats. Whereas a Magus gets free two-weapon fighting and Spellstrike as a class feature. He also gets to wield a scimitar and take advantage of Dervish Dance, whereas a two-weapon fighter does not.
This may lessen at higher level. Up to level 6, the fighter was not competitive. Then again the fighter I ran to lvl 20 was not competitive dealing damage with the Invulnerable Rager barbarian once the barbarian obtained Come and Get Me. The Invulnerable Rager Barbarian with Come and Get me would massacre both the fighter and the magus in a DPR Olympics, unless the creature attacking him worked to avoid Come and Get Me.
Archer would also beat the Magus for damage. Archers do crazy damage in Pathfinder.
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That's some pretty slim proof there.
It's anecdotal evidence and you flat out admitted the Fighter wasn't even focused on damage.
Yes, I would hope that ANY class focused on damage would beat one that was not.
I'll run some numbers on either builds or half-builds tomorrow to see what a Magus' damage output is compared to something like a Fighter, Ranger, or Barbarian. It's doubtful that it will match or exceed any of them unless he novas, and even then I'm not sure if he'd beat a well built Barbarian or Ranger vs FE.
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That's some pretty slim proof there.
It's anecdotal evidence and you flat out admitted the Fighter wasn't even focused on damage.
Yes, I would hope that ANY class focused on damage would beat one that was not.
I'll run some numbers on either builds or half-builds tomorrow to see what a Magus' damage output is compared to something like a Fighter, Ranger, or Barbarian. It's doubtful that it will match or exceed any of them unless he novas, and even then I'm not sure if he'd beat a well built Barbarian or Ranger vs FE.
If you ran those numbers, could you try to gauge for how long the magus can sustain his maximum damage and what is sustainable long term damage against other classes sustainable long term damage?
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Damage alone is irrelevant. You have to take into account the overall abilities of each class.
If the Magus equals the fighter in damage, he is overpowered because the fighter has no other options for defense and the like. Whereas the Magus can boost his AC, stats, defenses, protect himself against energy damage, transport himself, and the like with spells, casting while continuing to attack. When designing classes to be balanced, you have to take into account overall abilities. Not just their damage output.
That's why I finally accepted SKR's ruling. I tallied up the overall capabilities of the Magus including damage output. It doesn't hurt the Magus class at all to have one less attack. He still does tons of damage.
That being said. I'll use the numbers of the players. 20 point buy.
1. Magus Bladebound lvl 10 using shocking grasp.
a. 1 point arcane pool: Boost weapon +5 and keen.
b. 22 Dex with Dervish Dance Scimitar. Crit: 15-20
c. shocking grasp does 10d6.
d. Free action blackblade strike: +3 damage.
Attack Roll: +7 BAB +5 Sword +6 Dex= +18 attack -2 Spell Combat=+16
+16 Spellstrike/+16 regular attack/+11 Secondary attack.
Damage: 1d6+5 weapon+3 Blackblade Strike +6 Dex = +14
Average damage from shocking grasp 35.
So by hits:
Spellstrike: 17+35=52
Hit 1: +17
Hit 2: +17
Total Possible damage for round: 86 with average hits.
Options for round: Arcane Assault to boost hit. Usually defended with shield or mirror image and displacement self cast.
2. Two-hander Figher lvl 10 we'll assume haste given that is the test.
Str: 22
Feats: Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Greataxe)-My player likes the greataxe. He knows the Greatsword and Falchion crit more often, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec.
+2 weapon training Greataxe.
+2 Vicious Greataxe
Attack: +10 BAB +6 str +2 greater weap. foc +2 weapon training +2 enh -3 Power attack +1 haste =+20 attack
+20/+20/+15
Hit 1: 1d12 +9 str +2 weapon spec +2 enh +9 power attack +2 weapon training +7 vicious =37
Hit 2: 1d12 +12 Backswing + above mods = 40
Hit 3: 40
Total damage per round: 117 per round with average hits.
So does the 31 points of damage the Fighter gets from haste (not cast by him) make up for all the extra advantages the Magus gets?
If both are using only their own capabilities, absent haste since a fighter normally can't cast it, the Magus does more damage at lvl 10. That will drop at lvl 11 when the fighter hits three times. But the Magus gets two attacks, including his biggest attack, at his highest base attack bonus.
These examples are from two actual characters I have run. The damage is accurate.
Along with the Magus damage output, he gets two good saves, numerous spells, a +3 weapon for what is the equivalent of a feat, the ability to bypass all DR, and so many advantages over the fighter as to make that extra 31 damage seem downright pathetic.
As I said, I'm very, very comfortable not giving the Magus a haste attack using Spell Combat. They are a very nasty class.
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That's some pretty slim proof there.
It's anecdotal evidence and you flat out admitted the Fighter wasn't even focused on damage.
Yes, I would hope that ANY class focused on damage would beat one that was not.
I'll run some numbers on either builds or half-builds tomorrow to see what a Magus' damage output is compared to something like a Fighter, Ranger, or Barbarian. It's doubtful that it will match or exceed any of them unless he novas, and even then I'm not sure if he'd beat a well built Barbarian or Ranger vs FE.
I ran a human Invulnerable Rager with Superstition and Come and Get Me to level 20. I can't think of many classes that could beat that guy in combat. Maybe an archer or a prepared caster. If he gets them for a round though, they are in a world of hurt.
Melee monsters were a joke to that combo. Giants, hydras, and the like. Total joke. He didn't care about AoOs. He just wanted to get in where Come and Get Me worked.
That's why I didn't include barbarians. Magus can't beat a barbarian's damage output. That barbarian was a nightmare to run as a DM.
That's why I didn't include barbarians. Magus can't beat a barbarian's damage output. That barbarian was a nightmare to run as a DM.
That's a little biased there. You aren't including barbarians, your comparing to someone who isn't optimized to do damage, and your magus is expending resources and optimized for damage. Of course the guy who's blowing a 2nd level spell slot and 3 arcane points and a specific archetype and feat combination is going to be powerful compared to the guy who isn't going that direction.
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Damage alone is irrelevant. You have to take into account the overall abilities of each class.
I have seen several post here or in other threads claiming that the magus outdamage other classes, so I am interested in knowing if that is true and under what conditions.
If he outdamage a fighter going nova for a few rounds and then the sustainable damage is reasonably lower than he sustainable damage of a fighter it is ok, if he beat the fighter both in maximum output and sustainable damage there is a problem.
Yhe basic assumptions matter too.
"c. shocking grasp does 10d6."
I suppose you mean a intensified shocking grasp reduced to a first level spell with the trait, right?
"d. Free action blackblade strike: +3 damage."
At level 10 the BB has 3 arcana points, so that is true for 3 minutes, total, in a day, at most 3 fights as you can't spend it in lower increments.
Decidedly burst damage.
Hmm, bot the fighter and the magus have +6 in the physical attack stat. At level 10.
What is the intelligence of the magus? Why the fighter hasn't a +4 belt of strength?
I ran a human Invulnerable Rager with Superstition and Come and Get Me to level 20. I can't think of many classes that could beat that guy in combat. Maybe an archer or a prepared caster. If he gets them for a round though, they are in a world of hurt.
I fail to see Come and Get Me as so powerful if you fight something with a mind. After the first time the barbarian has used this trick all the onlookers know how it work and will take countermeasures.
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Damage alone is irrelevant. You have to take into account the overall abilities of each class.
I have seen several post here or in other threads claiming that the magus outdamage other classes, so I am interested in knowing if that is true and under what conditions.
If he outdamage a fighter going nova for a few rounds and then the sustainable damage is reasonably lower than he sustainable damage of a fighter it is ok, if he beat the fighter both in maximum output and sustainable damage there is a problem.
The magus generally is only competitive on DPR when going nova. He can generate insane numbers for short bursts.
In this circumstance, the additional damage from haste is trivial. The vast majority of the damage is not coming from the magi's sword and an extra swing is only going to result in a nominal increase in damage.
The rest of the day, the magus is using a cantrip to pretend he has TWF. Is it the position of those opposed to the magus benefiting from haste that the ability to fake TWF is overpowered when combined with haste?
Why don't we compare the damage gain from haste for a magus with a scimitar to the damage gain from haste for a raging barbarian with a greatsword.
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Why don't we compare the damage gain from haste for a magus with a scimitar to the damage gain from haste for a raging barbarian with a greatsword.Raging is a nova attack, so you should compare it to a magus going nova.
How many rounds in a day you can sustain one and the other matter, too.
If rage is a Nova attack, why does every single DPR calculation for a barbarian include it.
Unless the poster is attempting to understate the barbarian's damage.
(20+ rounds of rage/day by the time a magus can cast hast is not Nova.)
To answer your question: how long it can be sustained is the point. Even a high level magus can only Nova a handful of times per day vs single targets. A barbarian can rage on every non-trivial fight, moving from opponent to opponent as he does so.
Damage alone is irrelevant. You have to take into account the overall abilities of each class.
I have seen several post here or in other threads claiming that the magus outdamage other classes, so I am interested in knowing if that is true and under what conditions.
If he outdamage a fighter going nova for a few rounds and then the sustainable damage is reasonably lower than he sustainable damage of a fighter it is ok, if he beat the fighter both in maximum output and sustainable damage there is a problem.
Yhe basic assumptions matter too.
"c. shocking grasp does 10d6."
I suppose you mean a intensified shocking grasp reduced to a first level spell with the trait, right?
"d. Free action blackblade strike: +3 damage."
At level 10 the BB has 3 arcana points, so that is true for 3 minutes, total, in a day, at most 3 fights as you can't spend it in lower increments.
Decidedly burst damage.Hmm, bot the fighter and the magus have +6 in the physical attack stat. At level 10.
What is the intelligence of the magus? Why the fighter hasn't a +4 belt of strength?
I ran a human Invulnerable Rager with Superstition and Come and Get Me to level 20. I can't think of many classes that could beat that guy in combat. Maybe an archer or a prepared caster. If he gets them for a round though, they are in a world of hurt.I fail to see Come and Get Me as so powerful if you fight something with a mind. After the first time the barbarian has used this trick all the onlookers know how it work and will take countermeasures.
How many people are built to attack from range? Not many. Any fighter that has to go toe to toe to do damage without reach is screwed.
Superstition with human bonus means he misses saves on a 1.
He picked up the Step Up feat to stop people from taking a 5 foot step away from him. He also picked up an transforming weapon so he could turn his weapon into a reach weapon to deal with creatures with long reach.
He bought a Dex belt. Combat Reflexes. And Quick Reflexes or whatever that rage power is to build up his AoOs to something like 6 per round.
I could occasionally deal with it. But 90% of the time I could not. When I could not come up with a good reason why Come and Get Me could be countered, the creatures were meat. You going to use some kind of GM knowledge all the time with Come and Get Me or build every single enemy with Lunge so they can at least stand up a round?
The player specifically build to counter the reach weakness. Because anytime he can use Come and Get Me means he wins.
Why don't we compare the damage gain from haste for a magus with a scimitar to the damage gain from haste for a raging barbarian with a greatsword.Raging is a nova attack, so you should compare it to a magus going nova.
How many rounds in a day you can sustain one and the other matter, too.
Raging is not a nova attack. The barbarian at level 20 has 46 rounds of rage and can leave and enter rage at will. Even at lower levels, a few rounds of rage isn't hard to expend at all. He kills so quickly as to not require the use of a large number of rage rounds.
Like I said, I ran this combo. I can't even explain everything they can do. He completely overshadowed everyone else in the group at high level.
Sure, the two-hander occasionally got a really great crit and hammered something. The archer did his damage when fickle winds wasn't up. But the barbarian was a monstrous rage machine of damage throwing himself into battle recklessly he often had better DR than the monsters he was facing and did far more damage. He could stand toe to toe with a dragon with his ring of freedom of movement and kill it in melee combat. I had to make a dragon run from him because the barbarian took the AoO to get into melee with the guy. Then when the dragon tried to move to reach, he would use Step Up.
The bastard had a ring of evasion. He didn't care a lick about a ring of protection. He laughed at AC. He literally did not care about AC at all. He showed me why over and over again. Very little he could not outdamage raging with Come and Get Me. That's really all he cared about. Hammering them as hard as he could and then hammering them again if they attacked him. With Superstition he had a better reflex save than the monk.
His biggest weakness was no save spells like enervate and energy drain since his touch AC was trash.
I couldn't throw that at him every battle. That would have a been a jerk move.
Just a side note, he wasn't even a Beast Totem barbarian. He chose Fiend Totem because he liked it. It would have been worse if he were Beast Totem.
Damage alone is irrelevant. You have to take into account the overall abilities of each class.
I have seen several post here or in other threads claiming that the magus outdamage other classes, so I am interested in knowing if that is true and under what conditions.
If he outdamage a fighter going nova for a few rounds and then the sustainable damage is reasonably lower than he sustainable damage of a fighter it is ok, if he beat the fighter both in maximum output and sustainable damage there is a problem.
The magus generally is only competitive on DPR when going nova. He can generate insane numbers for short bursts.
In this circumstance, the additional damage from haste is trivial. The vast majority of the damage is not coming from the magi's sword and an extra swing is only going to result in a nominal increase in damage.
The rest of the day, the magus is using a cantrip to pretend he has TWF. Is it the position of those opposed to the magus benefiting from haste that the ability to fake TWF is overpowered when combined with haste?
Why don't we compare the damage gain from haste for a magus with a scimitar to the damage gain from haste for a raging barbarian with a greatsword.
Have you run a Magus?
It is not a nova attack. With Spell Recall a Magus can Nova quite a few times a day. A Magus can take Extra Arcane Points for an extra two arcane points. It works quite well for him.
You have to understand the majority of encounters are mook encounters that don't require nova attacks. A Magus novas on BBEG encounters which happen maybe once a day.
In most mook encounters even the monk can feel good about himself. Wizards and clerics barely need to cast. It is over fairly quickly.
In BBEG encounters when everyone gets to hammer him as hard as they can, the Magus shines bright. He novas on that BBEG and hammers hard. Thus for every encounter of significance in a given campaign, the Magus is able to use his abilities to the max. In encounters that don't require maximum ability, every class does quite well with their common attacks.
I DM a lot. I am the primary DM for my group. I get to experience all these fun little combos players come up with. Quite a few of my players show up to this very board to get combos from reading threads on the classes here. The barbarian Come and Get Me build came from the Advice section of this board as did the shocking grasp combo. The player adds in his own little modifications to deal with situations I throw at him to change it up.
If give the Magus back haste, I'll go with it. I don't think it makes the Magus super overpowered. I also don't mind the Magus not benefitting from haste. The class does a lot of damage in the most important encounters in an adventure. He has a lot defensive spells and alternate abilities that are more useful than anything a fighter or most other martials can get. He also gets two good saves, which both the fighter and rogue don't.
Right not is downright criminal of Paizo to not upgrade the rogue. They are no longer a competitive class as you reach higher levels. The lack of two strong saves is debilitating. And the extra sneak dice don't do much when their BAB starts to lag way behind the full BAB martials. Their lack of versatility from no spells causes them to fall way behind the Inquisitor and Magus, on top of the lack of two good saves.
Paizo has basically turned the rogue into a chump compared to their other class offerings. That is downright sad.
Small note- someone said that a Magus could spend their BB's pool and gain +3 damage for a minute. Black Blade Strike only lasts for one round. Thought that should be corrected.
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The bastard had a ring of evasion. He didn't care a lick about a ring of protection. He laughed at AC. He literally did not care about AC at all. He showed me why over and over again. Very little he could not outdamage raging with Come and Get Me. That's really all he cared about. Hammering them as hard as he could and then hammering them again if they attacked him. With Superstition he had a better reflex save than the monk.
Derail
Come and Get me against a creature with reach. He had Strike Back?No, even that don't work as it require you to use a standard action to ready the attack.
So, how it worked?
/derail
Small note- someone said that a Magus could spend their BB's pool and gain +3 damage for a minute. Black Blade Strike only lasts for one round. Thought that should be corrected.
Black Blade Strike (Sp): As a free action, the magus can spend a point from the black blade's arcane pool to grant the black blade a +1 bonus on damage rolls for 1 minute. For every four levels beyond 1st, this ability gives the black blade another +1 on damage rolls.
Seems like the bulk of the math was already kinda run so I'm not gonna bother (aka I'm pretty lazy).
Anywho, to be fair, the Rogue was never (well, never at least from 3.0) was always a chump. Once "trap guy" was no longer a needed role the Rogue became a relic whose only saving grace was a role that no longer needed to be filled...but the Dev Team thought was still needed.
I will concede that the Magus gets a lot more out of combat utility than most martial classes, but it kinda comes with the territory. Spellcasting is king in Pathfinder, and he has 6th level spellcasting.
The Ranger, Barbarian, and Paladin stay competitive for various reasons, like their sheer ridiculous damage output in all 3 cases, (one under middling-common circumstances, and another in a more limited, but effectively encounter ending fashion), and interesting abilities, but a caster is 9 times out of 10 going to beat a non-caster (which Rangers and Paladins really AREN'T in my book) in utility, 10 times out of 10 if they're well built.
Personally, I don't think the ability to nova against bosses makes the Magus OP. The Ranger with a boss who's his Favored Enemy, the Paladin vs a boss who's Evil (doubly so for Undead, Outsiders, and Dragons, common foes for important fights at mid-high levels), and the Barbarian vs...anything he can get his hands on will do about the same.
And neither does his utility. Utility is something every class should have (which is the main reason people think Fighters need a boost).
He's a solid class, there's no question, but I don't think he needed to be stealth nerfed by excluding him from the joys of Haste (Look, if my Barbarian can whip out 140 damage at level 11 with his 4 Earthbreaker attacks, nobody else needs to be excluded from it. Those poor, poor robots.).
Then again, it doesn't really change too much in the class overall. He remains solid, and the removal of the main benefit of a common buff won't change that too much.
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Damage alone is irrelevant. You have to take into account the overall abilities of each class.
I have seen several post here or in other threads claiming that the magus outdamage other classes, so I am interested in knowing if that is true and under what conditions.
If he outdamage a fighter going nova for a few rounds and then the sustainable damage is reasonably lower than he sustainable damage of a fighter it is ok, if he beat the fighter both in maximum output and sustainable damage there is a problem.
The magus generally is only competitive on DPR when going nova. He can generate insane numbers for short bursts.
In this circumstance, the additional damage from haste is trivial. The vast majority of the damage is not coming from the magi's sword and an extra swing is only going to result in a nominal increase in damage.
The rest of the day, the magus is using a cantrip to pretend he has TWF. Is it the position of those opposed to the magus benefiting from haste that the ability to fake TWF is overpowered when combined with haste?
Why don't we compare the damage gain from haste for a magus with a scimitar to the damage gain from haste for a raging barbarian with a greatsword.
Have you run a Magus?
It is not a nova attack. With Spell Recall a Magus can Nova quite a few times a day. A Magus can take Extra Arcane Points for an extra two arcane points. It works quite well for him.
You have to understand the majority of encounters are mook encounters that don't require nova attacks. A Magus novas on BBEG encounters which happen maybe once a day.
In most mook encounters even the monk can feel good about himself. Wizards and clerics barely need to cast. It is over fairly quickly.
In BBEG encounters when everyone gets to hammer him as hard as they can, the Magus shines bright. He novas on that BBEG and hammers hard. Thus for every encounter of significance in a given campaign, the Magus is...
Generally my adventuring days (both as a GM and player) are long enough and the threat of wandering monster common enough that expending all the arcana points and all the point of rage aren't good ideas.
both I and the other GM; in my group have monster falling back and regroup, using delaying tactics as it is common knowledge that the spell buffs have a duration and wizard/clerics use them a lot an do on.Sure, if you subscribe to the idea that with 1 arcana point you can recall a shocking grasp metamagicked to be a 6th level spell your points last a lot.
But as soon as you start paying 1 point to add power to your blade, +1 to have it last 1 minute level as the targets don't accommodate to the wishes of the magus and don't come in meele range to be slaughtered, +1 because you want to add one of the other possible powers, or you spend 2 Arcan points to recover that intensified shocking grasp your Arcana point start to drop very fast.
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The rogue isn't a frontline fighter. There are a bit to many archetypes that steal some of its stitch, but ti is a viable class.
if you want to increase its melee damage, look the FAQ about Arcane strike and spell like abilities.
Tsk, my apologies.
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I will concede that the Magus gets a lot more out of combat utility than most martial classes, but it kinda comes with the territory. Spellcasting is king in Pathfinder, and he has 6th level spellcasting.
The magus spell list lack a lot of the off combat utilities. At least until he get Greater Spell Access at level 19.
The magus spell list lack a lot of the off combat utilities. At least until he get Greater Spell Access at level 19.
I will concede that the Magus gets a lot more out of combat utility than most martial classes, but it kinda comes with the territory. Spellcasting is king in Pathfinder, and he has 6th level spellcasting.
Less than a full caster? Certainly.
But he still gets:
Feather Fall
Floating Disk
Alter Self
Dispel Magic
Glitterdust
Invisibility
Levitate
Spider Climb
Fly
Gaseous Form
Water Breathing
Dimension Door
Greater Invisibility
Wall of Ice (not as good as Wall of Stone, sure, but still decent I think)
Overland Flight
Wall of Stone
Teleport
Greater Dispel Magic
Flesh to Stone
True Seeing
Which is more than martial characters can say.
Diego, you keep mentioning that arcana pool points might eventually run out. Have you forgotten that magi and monks can freely recharge their pool points as long as they have a wyroot club and a crate of rats?