Please ---Need serious help with Rogue build---Please


Advice


Howdy,

I’m new to pathfinder and I need some serious help with a rogue character build. I’ve only played pathfinder once, so I don’t know all the great feat combos and tricks that the other more experience players I play with know. I want to build a solid rogue character that can dish out good combat damage. Everyone else in my group is squishy like me (wizard, alchemist and bard) so they expect me to do a little tanking. Could you guys please give me a few example of a 2 handed weapon rogue build and a two weapon fighting rogue build with their feet trees. Here are the requirements:

1. Has to be a 20 point build. I’m starting at level 1.

2. I don’t want to use any archetype where I lose my trap finding skill.

3. I want to be able to optimize my chances to sneak attack so I’m ok with going with scout archetype to help give more chances to sneak attack.

4. I’ll only get to play in this campaign about 6 or 7 times the whole year so my level progression will be really slow. I want a character build that will be solid and fun in the lower levels. Meaning I don’t want a character who has to wait until level 15 for his feat tree to really start shining. (it may take a couple of years before I get above 10 level)

5. This is not a requirement but I kind of like the idea of going with a half-orc so he can get a bite attack (to help deliver more sneak attack damage)

6. Also I'm not interested in using a longspear. We don't have enough tanks in the group for that to be effective.

Thanks for all you help in advanced. Like I said, I’m very new to pathfinder. I haven’t played a fantasy RPG since AD&D, so all this feat stuff is pretty new to me.

Thanks again


Sorry...One more thing. I'm not interested in multi-classing. I'd like to just stick to a rogue class if I can

Thanks again!

Grand Lodge

Rogue, the class, or Rogue, the concept?


First off are you allowed 3rd party material? Just paizo? Just core rules? Whats available to you will make a big difference. In particular the super genius games talented rogue is an excellent product for making a good rogue. It basically turns all the stuff the rogue and its archetypes can get into talents and 'edges', so you can really customize your character. It is one of the best ways I know of to make an effective straight rogue.

That said, you have mentioned you want your rogue to be combat effective, but what else do you want him to do, sure sneak attack can be great, but rogues are often defined by more then their straight combat effectiveness. What kind of rogue are you looking to make?

Scarab Sages

Here is an idea

Human
Str: 16
Dex: 15 +1 @ 4th & 8th
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 10
Cha: 8

Feats:
Combat Expertise(h)
Gang Up (1)
Combat Trick -> Two-Weapon Fighting (t)
Double Slice (3)
Weapon Focus (t)
Shadow Strike (5)
Minor Magic (t)
Arcane Strike (7)
Ninja Trick -> Combat Trick -> Improved TWF (t)

Traits: Armor Expert, Adopted -> Elven Reflexes

Skills: 11/level, have fun.


Its completely unrealistic to expect you to tank. All of the rest of what you are asking is certainly doable, and I'll post a build to give you some ideas when I get home from work... but off the top of my head you're wanting a Dexterity-based build using light weaposn (probably kukri's) and I'd reccomend a Human for the favored class bonus to gain some extra Rogue talents...

Don't let the Rogue's bad reputation fool you, Rogues can be incredibly effective characters, BUT for that to happen, they can't be the only or even the primary front-line guy. If you want someone who can fight, deal lots of damage and tank, well there are some great builds out there and I'll be happy to help. If you want someone who can disable traps, sneak attack and be highly skilled there are some great builds out there as well... but if you want to do both - well, I'm not sure what to tell you.


Dude, tanking with a rogue... no. In the group you mentioned, that will be the alchemist (if well played and built).

You seem to need trapfinding...

May I humbly suggest the Urban Ranger archetype? (you still get an animal companion). Sure, you don't get sneak attack... but you get full bab, an animal companion you boost with Boon Companion, medium armour and trapfinding. You can frontline with that.

What's the game setup? (Adventure path or otherwise?)


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blackbloodtroll wrote:
Rogue, the class, or Rogue, the concept?

<eyeroll>

Silver Crusade

If you are choosing Rogue simply because of trapfinding, there are other more tanky options for that. If you want a good tank that gets trapfinding, might I suggest the Trapper Ranger(UM)? They would give you most of what the Rogue offers, except sneak attack which you would not be able to utilize since you don't have a flanking buddy. Plus they have the added trapfinding class feature. They also have a larger hit dice, and some added combat feats to boot.

If you are sticking with rogue, I have never tried to build a tank rogue. I am afraid I wont be much help there.


We have a half-orc rogue (scout) in our 6-man party and he's been a good party member. We have a 25-point build but you can tweak to suit your needs. Since you only play sparingly, you really only need a few levels sketched out for you, right? You will have time to pick up the rest as you go.

Str 16, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 10

Feat: Dodge
Trait: Chance Savior, Outcast (change these to suit your needs)

He puts favored class bonus into hps every level I think. Skill ranks go into a variety of skills but include Use Magic Device for sure (as well as the standards of Disable Device, Knowledges, Perception, Stealth, Survival, etc.).

He uses a falchion two-handed with Power Attack (picked up at level 3 iirc) and at level 10 is darting in for a sneak attack and darting back out via spring attack feat (and skirmisher ability). By level 4 he was charging in and sneak attacking via scout's charge ability.

You might consider offensive defense for level 2 rogue talent. I forget what he took for his level 4 talent. I know he took crippling strike for his level 10 advanced talent (not that that helps you). Best of luck!


@Artanthos:

To my knowledge you cannot "ninja trick" an option that is also a rogue talent. So no double-dipping for 2 Combat Tricks. The Swashbuckler archetype allows for 2 Combat Tricks (though it does give up trapfinding/sense which OP wanted to keep).

Scarab Sages

LoreKeeper wrote:

@Artanthos:

To my knowledge you cannot "ninja trick" an option that is also a rogue talent. So no double-dipping for 2 Combat Tricks. The Swashbuckler archetype allows for 2 Combat Tricks (though it does give up trapfinding/sense which OP wanted to keep).

The ninja trick Rogue Talent explicitly forbids taking a rogue talent with the same name as a ninja trick.

The same wording does not appear on the rogue talent Ninja Trick.

If I really wanted to focus on combat, I would take first level as fighter and grab better weapons, medium armor proficiency and the bonus feat.


I could reccomend a potentially tanky/high damage dealing tanky rogue build, but it would be focused around hitting very, very hard once per round rather than two-weapon fighting... if you're interested.


Martial, Martial, Martial! wrote:
Its completely unrealistic to expect you to tank.

Nonsense. We can totally build you a tanking rogue! First, check out this thread: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pn7b?The-Rogue-as-a-tank-Can-it-be-done

Then, let me copy/paste some of the builds I suggest there.

1 dip in monk:
-----------------------
Thump the Goblin
Goblin Monk (1), Rogue X

Stats: 12-2/16+4/14/10/15/7-2 = 10/20/14/10/15/5

Feats:
Monk 1.) (Weapon Finesse), Roll With It
Rogue 1/Monk 1.)
Rogue 2/Monk 1.) (Ninja Trick: Style Master: Crane Style), Dodge
Rogue 3/Monk 1.) +1 Wisdom
Rogue 4/Monk 1.) (Offensive Defense), Dervish Dance
Rogue 5/Monk 1.)
Rogue 6/Monk 1.) (Trick of your choice), Crane Wing
Rogue 7/Monk 1.) +1 dex

If you want to do this with a different race not a big deal. Wield a scimitar in 1 hand, get dex to attack and damage at 5, Crane Wing lets you ignore an attack per round, and thanks to offensive defense, if you can get a sneak attack, you get a giant bonus to your AC. Between that and fighting defensively, you should be fine.

If you want, spend some of the spare feats in this build to get good at feinting, so you can always get a sneak attack for the offensive defense talent.

-Cross


To me, Tank means the ability to soak damage while dishing out devestating hits of your own. That doesn't really play to the strengths of a Rogue.

In order to survive in a dungeon environment, you need CON and DEX. I'd go with STR: 14, DEX: 16 and CON: 14. The mental stats can remain at 10. Being a Human Rogue, 9 skill points should be more than sufficient for your needs.

/side question - and this could change everything - are you going to be the party face? If yes, then CHA takes a front seat and I highly suggest that you reroute to the Bluff/Feint concept.

Scarab Sages

loaba wrote:

In order to survive in a dungeon environment, you need CON and DEX. I'd go with STR: 14, DEX: 16 and CON: 14. The mental stats can remain at 10. Being a Human Rogue, 9 skill points should be more than sufficient for your needs.

/side question - and this could change everything - are you going to be the party face? If yes, then CHA takes a front seat and I highly suggest that you reroute to the Bluff/Feint concept.

I went with 16 Strength to front load the to-hit and damage bonuses. The character is expected to remain at low for for a long time. Not having to worry about the Agile property is a nice bonus.

Combat Expertise + Defensive means the OP can choose to spike AC upwards in an emergency.

Even with an 8 CHA, 11 skill points means the OP can choose to invest enough in Diplomacy, Bluff and Sense Motive to remain relevant.


I have no issues with a *CHA dump whatsoever. For a Rogue, Weapon Finesse means everything. DEX is huge in that powers numerous class skills and is the basis for its best save. A Rogue will always get great mileage out of a high DEX.

Note - I didn't apply the racial stat bonus yet - slap it in DEX and now we have an 18. That's at least an 18 AC out of the box, if not 19 via something like Dodge. Not too shabby at all.

The Rogue's damage ability comes from his sneak dice. STR is nice, but its not (usually) priority.

/ OP - I very much agree here - don't multi-class. That's a good way to wreck a character.

Grand Lodge

Trapper/Freebooter Ranger covers the Rogue flavor, with 6 skill points per level, full BAB, two good saves, d10 hit die, free feats, and static bonuses to damage, that lack the situational handicap of Sneak Attack, and even the ability to deal with magical traps.

You are Rogue, the concept, but you are simply better.


Here is a "Rogue" for the OP (urban Ranger)
By 3rd level it gets trapfinding (you really shouldn't be running into magical traps before then)

Following the Op's request: Half-orc, no multiclass.
I would suggest going sword & shield combat with this one.
Prefeered class bonus goes to HP, armour & shield ACP figured in skills (disable device is higher than it appears)

Made with Scoreforge

Spoiler:

GNASH
Male Half-Orc Ranger(Urban Ranger) 1
Init +4; Senses Perception +6, Darkvision 60 ft
==DEFENSE==
AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16 (+4 armor, +2 shield, +2 dex)
hp 13 (1d10+2)
SR 0
Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +2
Armor Kilted Studded Leather, Medium
Shield Heavy Wooden Shield
==OFFENSE==
Spd 30 ft/x4
Melee Bastard (One-Handed) Sword +4 (1d10+3) 19-20/x2
==STATISTICS==
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 8
BAB +1, CMB +4, CMD +16
Feats Armor Proficiency (LIGHT / MEDIUM) (PFCR 118), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Sword, Bastard (One-Handed)) (PFCR 123), Shield Proficiency (PFCR 133)
Skills Bluff +4, Disable Device +3, Intimidate +5, Knowledge (local) +7, Perception +6, Stealth +3, Survival +6 [Tracking - 1/2 speed +7, Tracking - Normal Speed +2, Tracking - x2 speed -13
SQ Favored Enemy (PFCR 64), Wild Empathy (PFCR 65)
MC Track (PFAPG 40)
Traits Fast-Talker (Social) (PFAPG 330), Reactionary (Combat) (PFAPG 328)
Racial Traits Changed City-Raised (replaces weapon familiarity)
Languages Common, Goblin, Orc


For a rogue, OP, a few things:

First off, if you want to go Half-Orc, take the "Tusked" trait from the Orcs of Golarion book. This will allow you to keep your racial ability "Orc Ferocity" while still getting you the bite attack you want. "Orc Ferocity" will help you to be a bit more tanky.

Definitely think about (at least at level 1) going with a two-hand weapon, like the Greataxe or Falchion. You get proficiency in these from being a half-orc and could then take a feat like Power Attack, Toughness or even Tribal Scars. At level 1, with one feat in a TWF build, you're essentially going to have a +1 to hit with each weapon, so you might want to wait on the TWF build or go Human (for the extra feat) if you do want pursue that route.

If you do go TWF, remember to stretch out your feats by taking "Weapon Training" (Weapon Focus) and Combat Trick as your rogue talents, which essentially gets you two extra combat feats for your build.

I'm trying to stick with advice for your class (rogue), your preferred race (half-orc) and your first few levels, but certainly ask away if you have any other questions. Thanks and good luck!

Scarab Sages

I would avoid power attack on a rogue. At best your damage breaks even on a 3/4 BAB class.

Arcane Strike, on the other hand, is a straight damage increase. One that scales better with TWF than THF.


.. I don't think he meant he wanted to play a tank. I think he meant that he doesn't want to use a longspear, thats all.

I know you specifically mentioned that you don't want to lose your trapfinding skill. That just destroys a lot of options for you. Are you aware that there is a rogue talent called Trap Spotter that more-or-less gives you the trapfinding skill, even if you've traded it away? If archetypes that trade trapfinding are still off the table, then so be it... but you really can have your cake and eat it too.

Getting in sneak attacks is not really that hard for a rogue, I tend to feel that while Scout is good, it's not necessary for that, barring specific builds. Knife Master is great for pumping the damage you do get from sneak attack, but you do trade away trapfinding. Again, take Trap Spotter talent and you're golden.


Hey All,

I wanted to thank each and every one of you for your responses. Being new to pathfinder and all the feats, initially it was hard to know and define what could be possible. All of your comments have helped me better define what I’m after.

To answers a few of the questions. This character is for a pathfinder society game. So basically we have to go with the core races and core book, advanced player guide and ultimate combat/magic. I think that is all we are allowed.

I just found out that we should be getting a fighter class to join our group so that will take some of the front line heat off me. With that said I don’t have to worry about soaking up all the damage. So I’ll clarify a little more about what I’m thinking about in regards to tanking. In my first game I started off with the two weapon fighting (I really loved the concept). I could do great damage when I did a sneak attack, but since I didn’t have any other fighters to help me get a flank, when I couldn’t sneak attack (which was often) I was barely giving the NPC a haircut with the damage I was doing. My character was high DEX with strength of 10 so no strength bonuses to damage. So after the game I started thinking maybe I should switch to a 2 handed weapon and a strength build so I could be at least be relevant in combat even when I couldn’t get a sneak attack. So if there is a way to get good damage with two weapon fighting and a low strength I’d love to see it. I don’t know if there are any feats that let you use your dex for damage bonus instead of strength?

I’d also love to see some 2 handed weapon builds for rogues.

So I don’t expect to have the same damage output like a fighter every round. I just want to be able to be relevant in combat when I’m not able to get a sneak attack. In the end I still need to be able to do all the rogue stuff so I can be a support character, scout for the part, find traps, disable traps, etc.

Thanks for the suggestions for the urban rogue. I like the idea but I still want to stick with the rogue because I like the thrill of the sneak attack.

My Character concept, thematically I still like all the roguish stuff, like sneaking around, disabling traps, picking pockets, and the general getting in and out of trouble that comes with being a rogue.

AWP832 you mentioned something I didn’t know and if I understand you correctly opens up a whole new avenue. You mentioned you could take the trap spotter talent and that could make up for losing trap sense. Would the talent trap spotter allow you to detect and disarm magic traps?

I hope this helps more define what I’m looking for. Please keep sending suggestions. And I’d love to see more builds including feat progression (so I can become more familiar with how to go about a good feet progression tree)

Thanks again for your help!


that is the one downfall to trap spotter, as far as I can tell, magic traps you will still have no defense against. But in my experience, traps are not all that common, nor are they that deadly. It might be still worth it.

Now, there are great dex-only or dex-main builds for rogues. Pulling that off at level 1 is tough though, I will be honest. The main thing is that you're going to want an Agile weapon. You wont be able to afford this until around level 6.

Perhaps something along the line of:

Elf Fighter 1 Rogue5

13
19
12
14
10
10

Feats: 1F Power attack, 1. Weapon Finesse, 3. Choice, 5. Choice
Talents: 2. Combat Trick, 4. Ninja Trick: Vanishing Trick.

Primary attack: Agile Elven Curve Blade. +7 d10+10. [+3d6 sneak attack] threat 18-20x2.

Anyway, you take your 1st level in fighter so that you can gain martial weapon proficiency and a free feat. Because you're an elf, the Elven Curve Blade is a martial weapon for you. Then the rest of your levels are in rogue. Feel free to take the scout archetype here if you like.

I feel that Two-weapon fighting is sort of delayed gratification, and might not be as strong of a build in the first few levels. It could take some time for that to get good. With this build, even at level 1 you'll be attacking at +5 for d10+1 damage, which is not bad.


In the vein of what you asked for, I know you don't want to multi-class, but a decently tanky rogue (or even one who can frontline for more than a round or two) is difficult. For PFS, the Agile weapon property will not be available to a character until 6th level, as they can't buy a single item that expensive until then.

Trapfinding in PFS isn't necessary, it only matters for magical traps, which a detect magic will pick up. Any character with perception and Disable device can find and disarm non-magical traps.

I suggest a 2 level dip into Lore Warden Fighter. Light armor, all int based skills as class skills (including spellcraft, linguistics, and all knowledges), 4 skillpoints vs 2, 3 bonus feats, a decent fort save boost, a decent HP boost. The knowledge skills are a must for PFS, as is at least 1 of the social skills, (bluff/diplomacy/intimidate).

This is for PFS, and for your character concept and taste, you will want to take advantage of the rebuild rules. You may change everything about your character except the name, up until he plays his 4th game. Whatever you have on paper at the beginning of the 4th game is set, (this is your first game played at 2nd level).

So, for the 1st level Str 14 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 10 (adjust to suit) Pure Rogue, Half Orc with Weapon Finesse. Use a Falchion or whatnot, two handed for the extra point of damage, and try to flank anytime you can. (basically, train your fighter to charge to one side, not straight ahead, and you move up to the other side.)

Then, after you play 3 games, use the rebuild option to your advantage, and remake him a Fighter 1/Rogue 1, with the stats Str 17 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 13 Wis 10 Cha 8. The skulking slayer (H-orc PFS legal archetype from the Advanced Race Guide) stacks well with the Scout, turning all sneak attacks you deal while charging with a 2h weapon into d8s. It also lets you do a dirty trick maneuver or a steal maneuver in place of a sneak attack, which you should make use of to blind, denying them dex and preventing AoO's, and more importantly, preventing Full attacks from enemies. It does give up trapfinding, and a couple skillpoints, but still a decently rounded character.

This:
My PFS character is on this design, but took more fighter (trip, greater trip, felling smash, and imp/greater dirty tricks). At level 9 he's a 4 lore warden/5 rogue, hitting at a +16 for 2d6+16+3d8 on a charge enemy, getting a free trip at +24, (i specialize in maneuvers, with damage as a backup), then another free hit after they're prone (which I usually use to dirty trick-blind them at a +26). The blind takes a standard action to clear, losing their attacks/spells. If they stand up, they provoke, and if they don't clear the blind first, it's another sneak attack. Since I blinded them, they get no AoO's so the other slower characters get to walk around them to flanking position.

I also have cleave and surprise Follow thru, so if there are 2 enemies next to each other, I can hit one and cleave into the other for either sneak attack damage, or a dirty trick to blind him.

Even if you don't actually like the maneuver build style, you can drop the skulking slayer and just go scout with surprise follow thru to get sneak attacks on a cleave. A rogue won't hit much with his 2nd/3rd attacks, but cleave attacks are always highest bonus, and with surprise follow thru, they're denied dex and sneak attacks too.

Also, with surprise follow thru, if you cleave into a second target, you can use the rogue talent Fast Getaway to withdraw without AoOs as a move, which lets you do battlefield control amazingly well.

Grand Lodge

As I pointed out, the Trapper/Freebooter Ranger can disable magic traps, and doesn't have the downfalls of the Rogue class.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I've had some luck with the Combat Expertise/Improved Feint combo with a sneak attacker (3.5 spellthief using a longspear).

However, if you are going Tusked, you are still getting 2 attacks per round on a full attack, one without a penalty, one at -5.

I'm a fan of the Sacred Tattoo option for the half-orc (it replaces Orc Ferocity with +1 to all Saving Throws).


Hi All,
Thanks again for all the input and help you folks have given me. It’s been a learning experience. Anyway here is a brief update. I’ve done a lot of research and talked with a few other players, since my original post. It has been edifying. What I’ve come to terms with is the Rogue from my nostalgic days of playing AD&D is different than a rogue in pathfinder. I know all of you already know this, but it took a while for that to sink in for me. In the “good old days” the rogue was the master of stealth, disguise and deception, now anyone can be if they put enough skill points in the right skills. Also with Pathfinder society play, sleight of hand is almost useless because from my understanding you don’t get to keep anything that you pickpocket. In the good old days, nothing was more fun than pickpocketing a cool magic item off of an NPC wizard. If you were successful you’d get a neat magic item. If not, it would make for a good plot twist. In pathfinder society now even if you successfully pickpocket something you still have to buy it back at the end of the session if you want to keep it. Sure a little disappointing for me but it’s all perspective. Everyone has fun in different ways and time changes everything, so I’ve moved on to find something that will be a little more well-rounded for society play; give me good damage output; and still allow for a flavor of what I was looking for.

I decided to shift gears a little and go with a Ranger with a one level dip in Rogue. The ranger will give me good damage output and still allow me to play a heavy stealth character. I did one level in rouge so I could get trap finding and a lot of skill points so I could diversify and be a little bit of a skill monkey. I ended up going straight Ranger so I could get an animal companion over going with the archytype of urban ranger.

I used a lot of Treantmonks guide for building the ranger. Since I’m still very new with feats I’d love to get feedback on my feet progression to see if there any better feats to take. I’m going with the “switch hitter” Ranger theme for combat, so range attack at first and then when NPC gets close enough, drop bow and hit with two handed weapon. One question I have about Treantmonk’s guide, he really pushes quikdraw so you can seamlessly make your weapon switch. How important is that feat. I’d rather take furious focus to negate any penalties from power attack. Please let me know your thoughts.

Thanks again,

Human 20 point buy
Str18, Dex 14,Con 14, Int 11, Wis 13, Chr7
1 Ranger/1Rogue

1 (starter feat) Power Attack
1 (Human) Cleave
1 (Ranger) favored enemy (Human), track, wild empathy
2 Level 1 (Rogue) sneak attack 1d6, trapfinding
3 (Level 2 Ranger) combat feat – rapid shot, Feat – Furious Focus
4 (Level 3 Ranger) Endurance, Favored terrain (Urban)
5 (Level 4 Ranger) Hunters bond (wolf), Feat Deadly Aim
6 (Level 5 Ranger) Favored Enemy -- Undead
7 (Level 6 Ranger) Combat Feat – Many Shot, Feat – Vital Strike
8 (Level 7 Ranger) Woodland Stride
9 (Level 8 Ranger) Swift tracker, Favored terrain –Forest, Feat Critical Focus
10 (Level 9 Ranger) Evasion
11 (Level 10 Ranger) Favored enemy – Outsider (Evil), Improved precise shot, Feat Critical Focus – Blinding.

Silver Crusade

Urban Rangers still get animal companions. They change out other ability's but not hunters bond. So you can just go Urban Ranger and still have a animal companion.

Just a few suggestions.
For you ability scores your better off splitting the Int and Wis to both 12. Unless your doing a 13 Wis for a feet. Even then you will want a Wis item to help your Will save.

Cleave is a good feet for low level play when your using a two handed weapon. If your going for switch hitter. That's what it looks like any how your better off with a different feet.
Ranger Combat Style Feet: Rapid Shot. Your characters has a ok dex. With rapid shot you only really need or want this if you have a high to hit bonus for range attacks. Something you will have at lower levels but as you level up this will start falling off and make this feet sub par as you could take a few other things that would work better. Precise Shot then picking up Improved Precise Shot at level 6 will work much better for you. Even then I might suggest going to the two handed fighting style and taking a different rout with your feet's all to gather.

If it was me I would go with. Unless you modify your base ability scores to better fit a switch hitter. It is a big investment to get a high Str, Dex, and Con. That's one of the big draw backs to switch hitting with a point buy.
1: Power Attack
1: Improved Imitative
Ranger Combat Style 2: Pushing Assault
3: Quick Draw ( This is so you can still full attack after changing weapons. From level 6 on.)
5: Boon Companion (This is something you will want to help your animal companion be effective in combat.)
Ranger Combat Style 6: Furious Focus

Grand Lodge

Have you considered the Freebooter/Trapper Ranger?

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