So I'm making a Bard specifically for going into Melee. This strictly a build - I'm not worrying about equipment at this moment.
In serious combat, I plan on spending most of my actions casting buff spells (Priority: Haste -> Good Hope -> Tactical Acumen.) However in basic encounters I'd likely be smashing things with my sword with maybe the occasional spell (While still providing flanks to the more important damage dealers.)
Everything here is very tentative. I haven't done too much comparison - particularly in the realm of spell selection. Please check this out and tell me what you'd do differently.
Race: Fetchling
Stats (25 point buy example):
STR: 20 (To 25 by level 20)
Dex: 10
Con: 13
INT: 10
WIS: 8
Cha: 16
+2 STR and CHA is from Fetchling
Archetype: Arcane Duelist
Feat Order (Including Arcane Duelist Feats):
1 Greatsword Proficiency
Arcane Strike
2 Combat Casting
3 Weapon Focus: Greatsword
4
5 Power Attack
6 Disruptive
7 Lingering Performance
8
9 Dimensional Agility
10 Spell Breaker
11 Discordant Voice
12
13 Dimensional Assault
14 Penetrating Strike
15 Dimensional Dervish
16 Dimensional Savant
17 Greater Penetrating Strike
18 (A Feat - probably improved Initiative)
20 (Another Feat)
SPELLS: Not necessarily obtained in this order. I'm trying to avoid anything that allows a saving throw for full effect seeing as I am not boosting my Charisma.
Level 0
Prestidigitation
Mage Hand
Detect Magic
Dancing Lights
Spark
Ghost Sound
Level 1
Vanish
Timely Inspiration
Silent Image
Ear Piercing Scream
Feather Fall
Alarm
Level 2
Tactical Acumen
Silence
Shatter
Bladed Dash
Gallant Inspiration
Blistering Invective
Level 3
Haste
Good Hope
Jester's Jaunt
Gaseous Form
Dispel Magic
Purging Finale
Level 4
Freedom of Movement
Heroic Finale
Virtuoso Performance
Greater Invisibility
Dimension Door
Phantom Steed, Communal
Level 5
Bard's Escape
Bladed Dash - Greater
Shadowbard
Cure Light Wounds, Mass
Joyful Rapture
Level 6
Dance of a Thousand Cuts
Euphoric Tranquility
Getaway
Animate Objects
BrilliantInspiration
You gain very little from greatsword proficiency and weapon focus. You get +1.5 damage but lose the option to use a shield. If you can get a quickdraw shield and can get it enhanced as level appropriate you are better off taking improved initiative and quickdraw.
Your turn cycle will be:
- move (move action, optional)
- stow shield (free action)
- switch longsword to two handed grip (free action)
- attack(full round or standard action)
- switch longsword to one handed grip (free action)
- wield quickdraw shield (free action)
This gives you two handed strength and power attack except on AoOs while having +1 to +6 AC when you're not attacking.
As I mentioned my focus was to deal as much damage as possible I like your recommendation though it adds some versatility.
The reason I got Weapon Focus (I would have ignored it normally) is because I get the Penetrating Strike feats for free.
"Benefit: Your attacks made with weapons selected with Weapon Focus ignore up to 5 points of damage reduction. This feat does not apply to damage reduction without a type (such as DR 10/—)"
Even though as an Arcane Duelist I get the feat without the prerequisites, RAW says that I have to have Weapon Focus to enjoy the benefits.
Granted I don't need to get it so early on, but bonus to hit is a major factor in dealing damage particularly once you get multiple attacks.
Since I still have some feats later on though I can shuffle things around and put weapon focus closer to level 14 and take this suggestion though.
Initiative helps you get your buffs up before the fighter takes his first turn and close range ambushes past level 8 will allow you to dirge their saving throws for the caster to open with a mass debuff.
Playing a Diviner right now. It's going to be super hard for me to get over not having a +13 initiative :P. (Almost doesn't even seem worth it, GOSH!)
But I do love that feat and definitely understand the benefits. That's actually one of the biggest attractions to your quickdraw suggestion.
Initially this build was on a Half-Elf for Role-Playing reasons and I picked up Greatsword with Ancestral Weaponry. With the Fetchling as an option I guess I just really liked the idea of running around with a big sword.
I'm not a great fan of your spell choices either.Level 1:
Vanish has very little duration and the verbal component makes it almost useless for stealth. Not worth it except maybe at level 11 when you can cheese verbal component stealth with Zone of Silence and use it to temporarily crank your (or someone else's) stealth for a dash past a guard or to pick a pocket or something.
Timely Inspiration overlaps with inspire courage so it's only good for skill checks made by companions. Probably not worth having either.
Ear-Piercing Scream is a weak blast on a commonly strong save.
Alarm is something you'll cast once a day. If there's a wizard in the group let them do this, their opportunity cost is lower.
You don't have Saving Finale on your list. There is no better late first level spell on your list past the very early game. Take this at level 3 or at the latest retrain into it at level 5.
I'd also look at Grease and Liberating Command to counteract grapplers and Expeditious Retreat as just something that remains useful.
I'm thinking about high level with this list so the lower levels are going to be dump spells. (If I end up playing this bard soon, it's going to be above level 10.)
I definitely didn't like Ear Piercing scream and I didn't notice Saving Finale. Saving Finale definitely goes well with Lingering Performance. I'll definitely swap that out.
Expeditious Retreat is a good one I considered, I really didn't like spending the standard action on the buff though. Fully armored, I'm going to want as much movement increase as I can get though - I just wish the spell lasted longer so I can set it up earlier :P Why can't we get Longstrider! I'll definitely think on this one.
I like vanish for its quick utility - It's not by any means a stealth spell. I see it as an "Oh crap" spell (And it's appropriately named for that purpose.) But Liberating Command (one I totally forgot about) is definitely a better choice overall.
It's really tough for me to give up Alarm, in the games I play in we use it more often than you'd normally predict. Being able to spontaneously cast it is really nice too because you never know when you might need a lookout when you're doing something that someone doesn't want you to be doing. And with a 1 mile mental listen distance you can really set up some crazy stuff with multiple Alarm spells in a dungeon. It can kind of work as a cheap divination for predicting enemy movements. I guess enemy intelligence might be better for my Wizard to deal with, but I do like this spell all the same.
I love grease, but the reason I didn't take it on this bard is because it'd basically be a 10' square of difficult terrain if you can't make an acrobatics check or a bonus to escape artist. Now those are still some great utilities but I feel like I'd only be getting half the benefit of the spell. At earlier levels when the DCs aren't as detrimental I'd still probably take sleep instead.
As far as having Timely Inspiration and Gallant Inspiration goes - they're both immediate actions and a great way to spend your 1st and 2nd level slots at higher levels. From a "Get the best out of your knowledge slots" perspective, I agree with you, but from a "Actually use those 1st level spells" perspective I'd almost say I'd rather have Timely Inspiration over Gallant Inspiration, because I'll be casting Tactical Acumen all the way to level 20, but I really don't see myself casting a first level spell every combat.
Level 2:
Gallant Inspiration has the same problem as Timely Inspiration.
Shatter's nonmagical target limitation makes it a lot less useful than it looks at first glance.
You don't have Mirror Image on your list. Mirror Image is the spell that makes front line bards good. Take it at level 4.
For stealth consider Blur or Invisibility. You might also consider Glitterdust for countering invisibility.
Bah, why didn't I pick up Mirror Image??
Heh, that's definitely an oversight. With that said though I may not even be casting it most combats (I'm also probably going to be wearing full plate armor at higher levels.) I've got way too many party buffing things to do with my standard actions. Definitely should be on my list though.
I'm also a big fan of Glitterdust, but it's only a stealth counter if they make their will save. The aforementioned full plate armor might not get me too much use out of invisibility (Which yes, I now realize that it contradicts my comments about vanish up there, this conversation makes me definitely realize I should drop that), and I think Blur is redundant with Mirror Image.
Level 3:
Gaseous Form doesn't actually appear terribly useful. The 10' fly speed is pretty sad for scouting.
I'd look at Arcane Concordance for extending everyone's hour/level buffs into all day buffs and for boosting save DCs in combat.
Oh hey look, Arcane Concordance gives you extend spell too.
I like Arcane Concordance. I wouldn't take it unless I have another powerful caster in my party - so that's on the "Consideration list".
Third level spells aren't going to be hard to spend - Good Hope and Haste both share the slot and are happy contenders for BOTH being cast every combat. Since I'm not boosting my Charisma, I'm probably only going to have 5 or 6 3rd level spells by the end (Or two combats worth of overbuffing.) Gaseous Form is a random utility for when I need it - yes it has fly, but it also has "Get into anything that has cracks" too. I'm not sure I'd ever use it for scouting.
Level 4:
Phantom Steed, Communal is too little too late in the mobility department. The other casters have better mobility spells.
Virtuoso Performance eats performance rounds too quickly. It probably won't work with lingering performance.
Dance of 100 Cuts is better than Dance of 1000 Cuts. The latter overlaps with haste and someone should always be casting haste by this level.
Echolocation is a good scouting spell and lets you fight opponents with gaze attacks with impunity and ignore illusion based defenses and unless you're adventuring with an alchemist or druid or eldritch knight you're the only one who can do so.
Zone of Silence is the ultimate stealth spell, but you want it on a Page of Spell Knowledge instead of as a spell known if they're available in your game. You cast it in the morning and communicate with the Message cantrip or to by standing adjacent to the person you want to talk to and you get to cast spells with verbal components without anyone not adjacent to you being able to hear them. With this and a group invisibility spell the whole party can sneak up on enemies and prebuff for several rounds without breaking stealth.
As I build this bard, I'm not entirely sure we'll have a full arcane caster in the party - hence Phantom Steed. It is a little heavy in the 4th level slot though since I would like Dance of 100 cuts.
And I agree about Dance of 100 cuts - I'd rather have it than 1000 cuts. With that said, I have a hard time choosing my 6th level spells and not because they're hard to choose from. A lot of them require saves and if you haven't been boosting your charisma you're not going to see much use with them.
Virtuoso Performance is to get use out of Bladethirst or other songs that would never see the light of day out thanks to Inspire Courage. It's probably redundant with Shadowbard though.
Echolocation is one I'll definitely consider. 10 minutes per level is actually not too shabby and if I know that we might be encountering illusions of any kind the weighty standard action is a moot point.
Zone of Silence is neat, but expensive for a 4th level slot. That's definitely my reason for agreeing with you on using it through a spell trigger instead.
Level 5:
Cure Light Wounds, Mass is not worth it. It doesn't heal enough for combat and wands are better out of combat.
Joyful Rapture is probably not worth it either. Let the Cleric or Oracle deal with it.
I would instead look at Deafening Song Bolt. Deafened isn't the best condition, but it does hurt casters and the damage isn't shabby. And it's a ranged touch with no save or SR doing one of the most rarely resisted damage types in the game. I would also consider Cloak of Dreams. Your save DC won't be spectacular, but you'll be in melee so it'll trigger every round.
5th level is really hard if your saves suck. Cure Light Wounds Mass and Joyful Rapture are basically filler spells.
I didn't notice that Deafening Song Bolt had no saving throw. That definitely makes it a better contender for the slot.
And I love the idea of Cloak of Dreams and it's my biggest reason for considering scrapping the whole strength focus thing and boosting Charisma instead (Probably won't do that though since Bards just don't have enough spells per day to be full casters.) Here's the thing though - your first 5th level spells are at level 13. Battlebard, Bard's Escape, and even Bladed Dash are probably better overall options, so you're probably going to be level 15 before you'd see Cloak of Dreams on your spell list. The DC for Cloak of Dreams with a 16 charisma is 18. Average monster at level 15 has a 15 will save (Minimum 8) - this is using Shoelessinsight's bestiary statistics. That means at best I'm looking at a 50% chance of it working, but on average it's going to have a 10% chance of working. These can improve depending on whether I bother with a Charisma Headband, but with that you're looking at about 60% and 25%. You're right, it's not terrible since it'll be a round to round thing...
But here's the other thing. Cloak of Dreams has a ONE ROUND casting time. I'd be hard pressed to cast it with a standard action and the above chances, the full round makes me think it'll never be cast at all.
Level 6:
Dance of 1000 Cuts is no better than Dance of 100 cuts when haste is up, which it usually will be. It's not worth two spell levels.
Getaway is not worth a spell known. Either let the wizard or sorcerer do it with a relatively less expensive slot or get a page of spell knowledge, but don't waste a spell known on something you'll cast once a day that'll run for hours. Besides, Bard's Escape will get you more than 100' of head start for someone to cast Teleport or Air Walk.
Instead consider Irresistible Dance. You get it on a sorcerer's schedule and the consolation prize for a passed save will still absolutely ruin single opponents. Overwhelming Presence has a weaker consolation prize, but is murder on groups that aren't immune to mind effecting effects.
I actually had Overwhelming Presence on my list, but took it off because of Dance of 1000 Cuts. Here's my reasoning - if I'm the one who is in charge of Haste, my 3rd level slots are going to be extra precious. In regular battles with grunts 1000 cuts is a fine buff to help out. I still don't like my decision because of the standard action though, but 6th level suffers from the same problem as 5th level if you aren't boosting Charisma.
Without a headband, I'm looking at a 20 save DC (23 DC with a headband.) At level 17 the average Will Save is 17 (Minimum 7). Those are crappy odds for Overwhelming Presence and while Irresistible Dance does work for at least one round, I don't think it's worth my standard action to cast it most of the time. Overwhelming Presence does have the advantage of being an small army stopper though, which leaves it still worth considering.
Irresistible Dance would be something I'd consider grabbing if I had an evoker with Dazing Spell in my party though.
Euphoric Tranquility does the enemy lockout thing that Irresistible dance does but does not allow for a saving throw as long as you don't attack the target.
But, you definitely gave me something to think about a little more.
Without reading to far I can tell you this.
You have almost no Dex or Con. I am sorry, but I can't imagine this to be mine flanking buddy. I would ditch Str and go Dex build with scimitar. This will grant you more survival which any flanking buddy should have.
Hope this helps.
CON is an issue, but as far as DEX goes, being an Arcane Duelist I have the option of wearing plate at higher levels - which can knock off any dex bonus I'd have anyway.
My main motivation for raising DEX would be to get initiative.
Maybe this isn't the direction you want to go, but this bard doesn't seem much like the Flanking Buddy I imagined.
Get a Menacing sword (if that wasnt already the plan), get Outflank, use a rapier or scimitar, take Improved Critical then Critical Focus. If you really want, even skill focus: acrobatics.
Heavy armor doesn't scream mobility, and a lack of mobility doesnt scream flank buddy. Your feats arent really set up for flank buddy, basically nothing you have is set up for flank buddy. I'm not saying your idea doesnt have merit -far from it-... only that it doesn't seem to match with the description you gave us in the title.
Maybe this isn't the direction you want to go, but this bard doesn't seem much like the Flanking Buddy I imagined.
Get a Menacing sword (if that wasnt already the plan), get Outflank, use a rapier or scimitar, take Improved Critical then Critical Focus. If you really want, even skill focus: acrobatics.
Heavy armor doesn't scream mobility, and a lack of mobility doesnt scream flank buddy. Your feats arent really set up for flank buddy, basically nothing you have is set up for flank buddy. I'm not saying your idea doesnt have merit -far from it-... only that it doesn't seem to match with the description you gave us in the title.
You're right on the mobility thing - it's one of the hangups I have here. The armor is mainly to mitigate melee damage. I've tried to substitute regular mobility with the Dimensional Dervish line of feats (Allowing me to move in and attack more easily) and with the Blade Dash (Which allows me to move 30 feet regardless of what my normal move speed is.)
Plus with Haste (cast on the first round) even with full plate I'm looking at a 50 move. Without haste, Bard's escape puts everyone into flanking position.
The biggest reason for me to flank is to provide a +2 (or higher) bonus to my flanking buddy, not for me to be the main benefactor. But, I definitely should get Outflank, and I am ashamed that I forgot it.
Improved Critical is an expensive line of feats and is best paired with two weapon fighting, I think. That line seems more for the person I'm benefiting and not myself.
If you're not playing through the low levels I'd drop Lingering Performance. If you're using it to full advantage you're not able to use Finales. That frees up a slot for weapon focus.
Between Saving Finale and Liberating Command you will never lack for things to do with first level slots. If you're starting at level 10 nothing else matters.
At second level, blur is for your allies. If no one cares about stealth it's kind of weak, but with in the hands of a rogue or vivisectionist it's almost like invisibility that only drops for a round when broken. A lot of stealth related stuff is based on concealment.
At third try to get the cleric to caste Blessing of Fervor if you have one. His fourth level slots are less dear than your third level slots since you have good exclusives at this level.
At fourth you can pick up a Page of Spell Knowledge for phantom steed if you must, but you should make the party pay for it and a Runestone of Power. Or better still, let the Cleric cast Wind Walk or the Druid cast Transport Via Plants. If you're the only person in the party willing to play a caster at all let them deal with flesh and blood horses.
At fifth you can go for Shadow Walk if you're the only caster. Way better than Phantom Steed and doesn't sit at such a hotly contested level.
If you can pin down what everyone else is playing that would help.
Good points. I'll definitely be thinking about Shadow Walk too.
Improved Critical is just one feat... two if you include critical focus.
Although I suppose you could just substitute Keen using Bladethirst instead.
Anyway, I suggested Improved Critical/Critcal Focus or Keen specifically in order to combo with Outflank. I would definitely say it's worth an investment for a flank buddy.
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Stats (25 point buy example):
STR: 20 (To 25 by level 20)
Dex: 10
Con: 13
INT: 10
WIS: 8
Cha: 16
1. Fetchlings are DEX+2/CON+2/WIS-2.
2. You won't live long in melee as a bard with no dexterity bonus to AC and no worthwhile armor proficiencies.
3. If you're planning on raising that CON:13 to 14 at 4th, you're better off starting with STR:19/CON:14 and raising STR at 4th -- saving two build points.
= = = =
Flex bard:
Using the 20pt array of 15/14/14/14/12/07....
Fetchling (Shadow Magic archetype; perhaps others too):
STR:14
DEX+17 (bump 4th)
CON:12 (or 14)
INT:14 (or 12)
WIS-05 (!!!*)
CHA+16 (other bumps)
(or: STR:15/DEX+16 start, w/STR bump at 4th, then +4 bow...kind of a half-baked weak Deadly Aim, but better for melee offense if worse AC and ranged attacks)
Build:
01 (any melee, w/fighter, ranger or paladin[divine hunter]* best options), Quick Draw
02 (bard)
(*If final build is pala2/bardX, then the worthless will save is almost completely papered over. Perception score is myeh, but the class bonus puts you even with a typical fighter who throws every point at it. ...otherwise, you'll need a different dump stat, or some way to deal with will saves.)
Equipment by 6th: strength belt, MW composite STR+3 longbow & assortment of arrows, +1 cold iron scimitar, MW whip, +1 mithral agile breastplate, +1 darkwood quickdraw light shield
...gives you excellent ranged piercing, serviceable melee slashing. Quick Draw puts the right tool in your hand instantly at all times. ...generally you avoid melee, however; unless the opponents are humanoid spellcasters or other weak-in-melee.
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@Atarlost
And that is fine suggestion besides one small thing. OP never said how much cash he has nor at what level he starts, so I assumed first level. While elven chain and shield might help him out without doubt, I would question myself how would he get those items and what items will be available to him in general.
Hm.
If building for melee, I'd drop CHA to 14 - get an item later. Also, to me, this idea screams Dragon Disciple. It will progress your spell casting somewhat, but the best is you get +4 STR that stacks with everything else, better hp and some natural armor.
Have you considered a reach weapon like longspear? This will help you reaching and maintaing a flanking position and it might give you an advantage vs medium foes without reach to get of one or the other spell, too.
Ruyan.