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I like to think of PFS as being the bet of what RPGs should be, so I was kind of shocked when a player and sometimes DM used the "homos" twice while we were playing. PFS is a public event, and at least in my mind everyone should feel welcome, and not be subject to this sort of language. So how do you handle these sorts of comments? This wasn't from a young person either, and it made it worse in my mind that we were playing at a table of relative young and new comers.
Am I overreacting to this? I'm of the mind do what you want in your home games, but be on your best behavior when at PFS events.
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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You're not overreacting.
In my shop I have a pretty strict "no cursing" rule. I am a neighborhood coffee house in addition to a game store, so often have very young children, families, and much older adults in the store along with all the gamers. These "normal" patrons are bemused by the gamers all having fun, and find that atmosphere unique and inviting.
That, of course, can be quickly ruined by a gruff gamer dropping f-bombs every other word in the name of "role playing."
Likewise, social mores are enforced. No one gets away with racially or socially derogatory language. I go so far as to caution players who become overzealous with the Golarion-allowed ideal of slavery. I've had people try to make a big deal of slavery and slave owning "in character" and have shut them down, going so far as to ask one guy who kept pushing the, "So? They're just slaves," nature of his character at high volumes to either stop shouting about slaves or leave the store.
When someone does something offensive you just need to stand up, look that person in the eye, and very calmly say, "Please don't do that. There isn't any reason to be insulting to anyone, and that kind of language is definitely insulting to me."
If they don't stop get your coordinator and/or venue owner/manager involved.
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I am fine with a reasonable amount of saltiness at an adult table in PFS, if there are no underage players in earshot
Any time I am GMing with anyone underage at my table or in close proximity, however, I enforce no cursing and most certainly player/character conduct that is well within the "PG" realm
I have rarely had any issues at my tables apart from the occasional slip-of-the-tongue curse word, which is usually followed by an abashed look and an apology by the player in question
interestingly, policing the kids is sometimes more of an issue, both in their conduct, their character's conduct and (infrequently) their language
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This is definitely not "ok", especially at a public event. Derogatory speech is not the same as "salty" language, and if done in public may be the difference between someone approaching the table or avoiding PFS altogether.
Speaking up when you hear things like this can be difficult, but needs to be done. Hopefully, that will go just as Lamontius says, with an abashed look and an apology. If not, though, or if you do not feel safe doing so, please approach the coordinator. If that doesn't feel safe, contact the local venture officer.
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I missed that on my first read-through, that this came from the GM of the scenario
not appropriate in any way, shape or form
yeah, the difficult thing is that you need to speak up and let them know it is a problem and not acceptable
if that does not get results, Andrea provided great advice on making sure this does not go unsolved
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They were a player at the time they did this, but they do DM on occasion. I'm new to this group so I'm still getting my bearings with who is who and how involved in PFS this individual actually is. Most disappointing is this person has a really solid grasp of the rules and tactics, just not the spirit of the game.
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They were a player at the time they did this, but they do DM on occasion. I'm new to this group so I'm still getting my bearings with who is who and how involved in PFS this individual actually is. Most disappointing is this person has a really solid grasp of the rules and tactics, just not the spirit of the game.
Bring this to the attention of the event coordinator. If it was the event coordinator, bring it to the attention of a local VO. If it was the local VO, bring it to the attention of Mike Brock.
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They were a player at the time they did this, but they do DM on occasion. I'm new to this group so I'm still getting my bearings with who is who and how involved in PFS this individual actually is. Most disappointing is this person has a really solid grasp of the rules and tactics, just not the spirit of the game.
I can assure you that as a former VC, having terminated the involvement of one player in PFS due to racial slurs, that if you bring it up to your coordinator and/or VC, this will get resolved.
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So how do you handle these sorts of comments?
Best way is to always start by asking nicely, for the person "not to say that". That solves the problem most of the time.
If they ignore that and it's a public game, you bring it to the attention of your coordinators (and increase from there). If it's a home game, you don't return.
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Likewise, I have heard the word "rape" more at PFS tables than everywhere in the last year combined (if I didn't count cop drama shows it would be at least more than I have heard in the last decade combined.) Normally it wouldn't bother me, but because I know it bothers my wife it makes for some uncomfortable situations.
I generally don't like to say anything in her presence to attract attention to her, but I have before when she was away from the table. I think it goes to the fact that gamers are not always the most socially conscious people. Luckily this is less frequent at our regular haunts.
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My wife has issues relating to smutty play, and I always call people on it because she is non-confrontational by nature, and I am confrontational for a living. I don't like doing it, but I would rather her be happy.. . so there you are.
Anyhow, I am trying to start a local group. So far we have 3 players so we always have a pregen (well 2 with numbers and one who is still borderline, but finished Rivalry's End and Crypt of the Everflame . . .) At our first meeting, and at the start of most every meeting, I explain the Don't Be A Jerk Rule, and set a copy of Mike Brock's "You Cannot Be a Jerk and Try to Justify It as Role Play" statement linked on my iPad for quick reference.
As others here are saying, please report it. You are not overreacting. You should be able to feel comfortable and welcome at your PFS table, regardless of race/gender/orientation/etc., and so should everyone else.
If you feel comfortable doing so, I'd suggest first saying to the person who's using that sort of language, "Hey, I'm not comfortable with the word "homo" (or "rape" etc.) being used in this context. Please stop." But if you're not comfortable, or they don't stop, please contact your coordinator or VC. It's not acceptable behavior from players or GMs.
Thanks for speaking up. :-)
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Also remember that sometimes it is just apart of peoples vocabulary. I am in the army and people drop F-bombs as a filler word, like "um" or "you know what I am saying,".
The best way to handle this is to talk to the person in a private context and tell them how it ether offends you or is offending other people. Please be honest with them and try and believe the best about them. Try and assume they weren't being malicious ether.
Know that I am not excusing their behavior.
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A similar question: How should one handle players who have chosen to roleplay their characters as a real world racial, ethnic, religious, etc. stereotype?
I have a monk who only speaks common and tien, and I have modeled him on my Japanese father-in-law (I'm gaijin). he's gruff, difficult to understand, and doesn't speak English very well. unfortunately, my grasp of Japanese is even worse than his English, so my in-game speech tends to sound more like a sushi menu than coherent dialogue.
I always clear this with the group beforehand, and if anyone made an objection to the "racial stereotype" I wouldn't do it that session. I'm not playing it up like old-timey stereotypes (think Breakfast at Tiffany's), but it does create some interesting interactions.
I basically play him off kind of like Ichiro. I know and understand what's going on around me, but I don't let anyone else (in character) know that. that way, if something really important comes up, I can speak very succinctly in common and get everyone's attention.
it's all about reading your table. and if necessary, flat out asking ahead of time if someone would be offended. personally, I get more upset by the guys-playing-slutty-females type... think Dorkness Rising.
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Also remember that sometimes it is just apart of peoples vocabulary. I am in the army and people drop F-bombs as a filler word, like "um" or "you know what I am saying,".
The best way to handle this is to talk to the person in a private context and tell them how it ether offends you or is offending other people. Please be honest with them and try and believe the best about them. Try and assume they weren't being malicious ether.
Know that I am not excusing their behavior.
An F-bomb or other expletive is not the same as a derogatory, dehumanizing term used to describe an ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation. Excusing away that behavior as part of a machismo culture, military or otherwise, does ZERO service to the inacceptability of those terms. I know plenty of people with racist, misogynist and homophobic tendencies; just because they have other wonderful aspects of their character (like every single human on this planet) doesn't mean they don't deserve to have society collectively come down like a ton of bricks when their flaws cross the lines of propriety.
There is absolutely nothing acceptable in the term, "homo." If I were at a table where this term was used (whether I was GM or player), it would be made clear this was not acceptable. If there was even so much as a question or argument about that unacceptability, I'd be heading for whichever VC or VL was closest and raising hell about it.
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An F-bomb or other expletive is not the same as a derogatory, dehumanizing term used to describe an ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation. Excusing away that behavior as part of a machismo culture, military or otherwise, does ZERO service to the inacceptability of those terms. I know plenty of people with racist, misogynist and homophobic tendencies; just because they have other wonderful aspects of their character (like every single human on this planet) doesn't mean they don't deserve to have society collectively come down like a ton of bricks when their flaws cross the lines of propriety.There is absolutely nothing acceptable in the term, "homo." If I were at a table where this term was used (whether I was GM or player), it would be made clear this was not acceptable. If there was even so much as a question or argument about that unacceptability, I'd be heading for whichever VC or VL was closest and raising hell about it.
Hey Roy, I don't know why you quoted me. I agree that it is not acceptable to use the term "Homo", I was giving advice to the poster to best handle this. I was using some personal experience when I disagree with what people are saying or how they are saying it. I never said the F-Bomb was a complete equivalent to it, I was using an example of how people don't realize what they are saying. I never said I was excusing their behavior ether (I didn't say I was and I made a calrification that I didn't condone their behavior) I am trying to believe the best about people, despite the fact that people are broken.
I don't know if you think I was condoning this use of the term (which I didn't) but if we are society that is against bullying we shouldn't "collectively come down like a ton of bricks when their flaws cross the lines of propriety." We should gently take them aside and talk to them with wisdom and love. I believe you will get the best results rather then shaming them in front of their peers.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I have been working on (as a player) a firm, unimpressed, and slightly disappointed "dude, that crossed a line, you need to stop." So far, it seems to work to get people to stop and rethink what they are saying.
Anything that makes other players uncomfortable is not okay at the table.
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Hey Roy, I don't know why you quoted me. I agree that it is not acceptable to use the term "Homo", I was giving advice to the poster to best handle this. I was using some personal experience when I disagree with what people are saying or how they are saying it. I never said the F-Bomb was a complete equivalent to it, I was using an example of how people don't realize what they are saying. I never said I was excusing their behavior ether (I didn't say I was and I made a calrification that I didn't condone their behavior) I am trying to believe the best about people, despite the fact that people are broken.I don't know if you think I was condoning this use of the term (which I didn't) but if we are society that is against bullying we shouldn't "collectively come down like a ton of bricks when their flaws cross the lines of propriety." We should gently take them aside and talk to them with wisdom and love. I believe you will get the best results rather then shaming them in front of their peers.
I quoted you because you mentioned that sometimes words like these are just a part of a person's vocabulary. Your comments excuse the use of hate speech; I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but there is no need to humanize people by explaining that they, "just speak that way," or, "grew up in a different time," or, "don't mean it the way people hear it." The point is every person who says something hateful is doing something we as a species should deem unacceptable, even though that person probably has plenty of aspects to their personality that make them otherwise wonderful.
I disagree completely with you that a private conversation about this is best. A public stand against hate speech not only lets the person saying those hateful words know they are wrong, but it lets those affected by the words know we as a society deny them. You are concerned about the person spouting, "homo," being shamed by his peers? I am 100% kosher with his momentary shame if the net effect is the gay person sitting next to me knows we publicly consider him as fully human as us.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Yeah, your legend even reigned in our table a couple weeks ago and we weren't even playing in your store.You're not overreacting.
In my shop I have a pretty strict "no cursing" rule.
My new store motto: Enchanted Grounds - Making the world more pleasant; one gamer at a time. (-:
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Hey Roy,
So you have three options here.
1. Let the person continue using the term and have the offended party feel alienated.
2. Stand up for the offended party and shame the person who is using derogatory term.
3. Talk to both parties in private and reconcile.
Trust me, 1 and 2 are easy but with 3 you gain the greatest reward and a better community. People are messy it is easy to shame and feel righteous about it. Your going to get nowhere in this society by creating more wounds.
Do you want alienation or transformation? That is why I disagree with your position.
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Hey Roy,
So you have three options here.
1. Let the person continue using the term and have the offended party feel alienated.
2. Stand up for the offended party and shame the person who is using derogatory term.
3. Talk to both parties in private and reconcile.Trust me, 1 and 2 are easy but with 3 you gain the greatest reward and a better community. People are messy it is easy to shame and feel righteous about it. Your going to get nowhere in this society by creating more wounds.
Do you want alienation or transformation? That is why I disagree with your position.
I disagree. A quick, firm, "please don't use that sort of language at my table," followed by moving on immediately not only sends the message to the person who used it that it's not acceptable, but to the rest of the table as well, just in case it wasn't clear. It also, just as importantly, positions you as someone who will support others if they speak up about language or behavior that's making them uncomfortable. And I don't think it is excessively shaming.
Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Northwestern Indiana
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My policy is that I will not allow the use of derogatory terms. (I have seen a couple of players use derogatory terms at my tables and asked them to stop. Also, I try to limit the use of swear words in a public gaming shop or if there are young people at a table.)
I have been offended by some remarks at the table and have asked them to stop, using humor in one instance. The fact that the young man's Dad was gaming nearby probably lead to a good discussion later. There was an apology and we were able to move on. (Still, I felt that we have a bit of work to do as a society in terms of tolerance.)
I try to move on quickly after a problem so we can focus on the game and not bad behavior.
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More times than not, if you just simply say "Hey I'm gay" generally they will cut it out. If that doesn't work, flirt with them til they are uncomfortable. That will normally hush them up.
I was about to say this is much harder for me to pull off with my wife at the table, but then I remembered that I have a Harlot PC who is often... a bit PG. She often can get a blush out of grown men. ;) so my wife is kind of used to me flirting with the other players in a game.
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I disagree. A quick, firm, "please don't use that sort of language at my table," followed by moving on immediately not only sends the message to the person who used it that it's not acceptable, but to the rest of the table as well, just in case it wasn't clear. It also, just as importantly, positions you as someone who will support others if they speak up about language or behavior that's making them uncomfortable. And I don't think it is excessively shaming.
Hey Jessica,
Thank you for joining the conversation, "please don't use that sort of language at my table." is much different then
"society collectively come down like a ton of bricks when their flaws cross the lines of propriety."
which was the assumption I was working with. However, I still think we should be working toward reconciliation rather then outward conformity.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I feel like the "flirt with them till they leave" is just answering homophobia with sexual harassment, and will only strengthen their homophobic attitudes. (I understand the temptation, I had similar temptations on other issues, but that doesn't make it okay.)
Fix the problem, don't make it worse and then chase it onto someone else's turf.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Northwestern Indiana
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I'd start by assuming they were clueless rather than malevolent, especially if there was a generation gap.
In the incidents I mentioned (there were two that were personally connected to me), I presumed it was clueless instead of hate. Still, it rubbed salt in a wound.
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I'll likely talk to this person and the event coordinator at the same time. Put forth my issue and go from there. I suppose I'm thinking of it in terms of if this happened in the work place, how would I handle it. I'd talk to the person and then our supervisor so it all on record. Who knows how many times the person has been taken aside and asked to not do X-behavior by a coworker, or in this case another player.
I'm really glad to see all the great responses to this and know people really take the hobby seriously. I'm of the mind that we all become ambassadors for the game whenever we are playing and should make sure its the best possible and positive time for everyone involved. It looks like you all are out there doing exactly that.
Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Columbus
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I agree with 95% of the posts above. Some are a little TOO restrictive in a gaming atmosphere---ie no playing the "slave" role play.
So what happens with the new season 5 and the "crusade" what happens if someone is offended by talk of "crusading".
People need to be respectful toward others both ways but it IS a game where slaves and crusades and gladiators exist. If it is not a racial thing where someone is being a jerk in real life at the table but is just role playing his Chelaxian attitude of "send the slaves to the front to soak up the damage, they are just slaves" and you overreact---then I believe YOU are the one stepping over the lines.
What would you do if I complained about the way season 5 portrays crusaders as corrupt?
In all things moderation.
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Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Columbus
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I worry we may become TOO pc in this game
My forefather was a pirate--I don't like the way you portray them
I am offended that you are doing dialects when speaking Ie oriental for tien
I am from India and am offended at the way Vudrani are portrayed
Maybe people from Europe are offended at the way you play your Taldoran
Maybe people from Africa are offended that the Mwanga are portrayed as backward and ruled by a giant gorilla.
Maybe I am short and am offended by the way halflings or gnomes are portrayed.
Maybe I am mentally handicapped and offended at the way you play your low int/wis barbarian
Don't be a jerk--but don't let PC ruin the game.
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Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Columbus
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Being a Christian I am fully expecting to be kind of insulted a lot by the way they will be portraying the crusaders in season 5----ie they already have told us they are corrupt and inquisitions and such. Pretty much a portrayal of Christian crusades. SO should I expect no season 5 scenarios played at EG? Or are you going to let everyone know they can not "roleplay" the corruption of the Crusades?
Do we sacrifice role playing to be PC?
We need to recognize the difference between being a jerk and roleplaying.
How many of you have dealt with "Miss Feathers?"
Should "miss feathers" be removed from scenarios?
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Portraying the corruption of crusaders in Golarion is not roleplaying the actual historical crusades. I don't think worshippers of a Chelish knight-goddess who are attempting to stop demons from an Abyssal rift from taking over the world have much of a parallel to attempts by Christians to wrest control of various sites important to their faith from Muslims, pagans, and different flavors of Christians, beyond the words "crusade" and "knights." At the end of the day, it's a fictional world that draws inspiration from a large number of historical events and organizations. That said, if after reading or playing scenarios/APs/etc. that deal with the Mendevian Crusades, you believe that there is something that can be read as offensively negative commentary on actual historical people, please let us know.
Misogyny, homophobia, racism, etc. are things that people have to deal with every day, and may not want to have to deal with in their gaming. So while I don't get too worked up if the villain also has derogatory things to say about women (presumably he's trying to kill my character, so if he also insults me, well, we were never going to be friends), I expect my fellow players to treat me as a player with respect, and I expect their characters not to persecute mine based on my gender.
PFS tables should be safe spaces for people to enjoy gaming, where they don't have to worry about being treated badly by their fellow players based on their gender/race/orientation/etc., and where they can feel free to play a female character, or a transgender character, or a dark-skinned character, without having to fear that they'll be abused by other players via the game for it.
Not letting people use slurs or other abusive language at the table isn't about some abstract notion of "being PC." It's about making sure that everyone's welcome, and having a good time, at our tables.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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The one and only time I came down on someone about the slave thing was due to the absolute callousness he was using. To be perfectly honest he could have substituted the word "puppies" for "slaves" and I would have been just as annoyed. He was being deliberately provocative, poking at other people in an effort to get a rise out of them, then blowing it off when someone would ask him to cool it. So, yeah, I threatened to punt him. He stopped. Mission accomplished.
As for Miss Feathers: you go right ahead and portray her how you think she should be portrayed. You start getting too raunchy and I'm going to shut you down. And you know what: I get to be subjective about what is raunchy and what is not. I'm sorry that bothers you.
Finally: yes, if someone starts needling you for being a Christian, calling you a murdering crusader sympathizer who condones the bloodletting of Muslims for sport, and you get offended, you can bet your ass I'll step in and stop it.
If my desire to maintain a certain atmosphere in my store is not conducive to your "role playing" you are welcome to not join in with the games I host. That's where your subjectivity gets to rule. Fair?
Edit: PS - I think I've made it incredibly clear that I am an approachable, fair person when it comes to what happens in my store. If you feel differently, please feel free to let me know. I don't recall you and I ever having a disagreement, so I'm not entirely sure why we are now being hostile toward each other. I would prefer we continue to treat each other with the respect we have always shown each other.
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Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Columbus
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I have been offended many more times than once by religious comments at a table.
Doing the Rahadoum campaign many comments about---so what is different about this mage religion than any other religion---they are all about corruption and control---(((that game was at EG by the way.)))))
It happened during mask of the living god also--when the characters were sent out to fleece the market--with comparisons to modern day tithing.
any time you take something like slavery or religion--people will make comments comparing it to modern time.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I have been offended many more times than once by religious comments at a table.
Doing the Rahadoum campaign many comments about---so what is different about this mage religion than any other religion---they are all about corruption and control---(((that game was at EG by the way.)))))
It happened during mask of the living god also--when the characters were sent out to fleece the market--with comparisons to modern day tithing.
any time you take something like slavery or religion--people will make comments comparing it to modern time.
Then I will give you the same advice I gave the person above: pause the game, look the offending party in the eye, and ask them to please stop. If you are ever in my store and have an issue with this that you cannot solve on your own, please involve me. I am obviously okay with confrontation, especially when it comes to the comfort level of my patrons, and have no problems being offended on your behalf.
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Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Columbus
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Then I will give you the same advice I gave the person above: pause the game, look the offending party in the eye, and ask them to please stop. If you are ever in my store and have an issue with this that you cannot solve on your own, please involve me. I am obviously okay with confrontation, especially when it comes to the comfort level of my patrons, and have no problems being offended on your behalf.I have been offended many more times than once by religious comments at a table.
Will do
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I'm not sure how so many of the people posting enjoy any part of life. SO many seem to be offended by so much I dont know why they even bother to leave the house and interact with other people. If comments or language from other people effect you so much, then your self esteem needs some work.
Really? I would have loved to see you tell someone like Martin Luther King his self-esteem needed work.