First of all, hello Paizo forums. Long-time lurker making his second post, having just responded to another thread that caught my eye. Searched before on this but found no asking in a similar vein.
Anyway:
Looking over the wording for Thunder and Fang and archetypes concerning use of two-handed weapons as one-handed weapons, I noticed a difference in the text;
Benefit: You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon. When using an earth breaker in one hand and a klar in your off hand, you retain the shield bonus your klar grants to your Armor Class even when you use it to attack. Treat your klar as a light weapon for the purposes of determining your two-weapon fighting penalty.
Of note is that you can use it as though a one-handed weapon, which occurs in a) Phalanx Soldier's Phalanx Fighting feature and b) Titan Mauler's Jotungrip feature.
...when a phalanx soldier wields a shield, he can use any polearm or spear of his size as a one-handed weapon.
...a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her...
Relevant omissions from T&F bolded. I wonder mostly because those features make that very restriction, and wonder partly on how universal "as a one-handed weapon" applies for things like this. Is it just the handed-ness for your...hands (and by extension, for strength bonuses/power attack) that matters or is it a categorical shift in the weapon size?
If you're trying to use a large Earth Breaker as a one handed weapon, Thunder and Fang does not allow that. Sure you could say that a large earth breaker is a one handed weapon, but you're a medium creature so large one handed weapons are two-handed weapons for medium creatures. Nothing will let you get around that.
If you're trying to use a large Earth Breaker as a one handed weapon, Thunder and Fang does not allow that. Sure you could say that a large earth breaker is a one handed weapon, but you're a medium creature so large one handed weapons are two-handed weapons for medium creatures. Nothing will let you get around that.
Not the intent at all! More wondering if this subsequently allows the possibility of the large EB as a two-hander, as you gave.
To wield the earthbreaker in one hand per T&F, you must be able to wield it all. A Large earthbreaker (or any other large, two-handed weapon) cannot be wielded by a medium creature so the handedness cannot be modified by T&F.
Ah, thank you. Hadn't considered this angle. Although my thought stems in the same concept as Claxon presents. The feat allows the player to treat it as a one-handed weapon, which suggests subsequently a large as two-handed (but I'm repeating).
My contrary thinking is thus, though;If I have the feat and pick up the EB and a Klar (for a more normal scenario), normally I cannot do this but the treating it as a one-handed weapon occurs, but when? Is it before I attempt to use the EB as a one-handed weapon, or after I begin to be in a state of wielding it. If it is after, how can I be wielding it when it is still (by taking it in such a flow of events) a two-handed weapon? If before, then the EB is a one-handed weapon for me (when of my size), and can I not therefore, grab an inappropriately sized one, taking the normal size category bumping into account. And if not, which property is demanded to break the chain? I can appreciate the idea "you have to be able to wield it in the first place" but I then think "well, if I'm holding a Klar and take an EB, I can no longer wield it due to lack of hands, and then cannot apply T&F."
It may seem a pedent holding a corner but in conjunction, I'm thinking of the Bastard Sword and the old argument of EWP for it and taking up a Large Bastard Sword. Since it's in two hands - am I now using it as a martial weapon and hence this large one cannot be held, or does the EWP feat take priority, making the weapon plausible to use? Though, of course, that is a case where a higher-handedness is the rules-exception as opposed to lower-handedness.
Granted, this all assumes some programming-esque event-by-event logic takes place for the rules.
I would agree that it is a case similar to the bastard sword. Without Exotic Weapon Proficiency it is two-handed. With it, it is a one-handed weapon. I believe that you could wield a large bastard sword in two-hands with Exotic Weapon proficiency, because its the same as a one handed weapon that just happens to be large size category. Though I'm not exactly sure if the hierarchy of rules works out that way or not.
What do you think the intent is?
Which is an entirely different question from "What do you wish the intent is?"
Thunder and Fang lets you treat a 2handed weapon as a 1handed weapon. Thunder and Fang does not state that you treat an impossible weapon (larger than 2handed) as a 2handed weapon.
So I would say, no.
- Gauss
Well, the only thing I can say is that Amiri uses a large size category bastard sword. So, that sets some of a precedent.
Normally a bastard sword is a two-handed martial weapon.
Exotic Weapon Proficiency allows you to treat it as a one handed weapon.
Amiri has a large bastard sword, which she wields two-handed at a -2 penalty. So....
Not really, Amiri uses a large 1handed weapon. A Bastard Sword is not a 2handed weapon. It is used in 2 handed style if you do not have the proper feat.
Bastard sword = 1 handed -> large bastard sword = 2handed
Earth Breaker = 2 handed -> Large Earth breaker = unusable
So, EWP allows you to use a Bastard Sword 1handed, then it becomes 2handed when sized for large.
However, Thunder and Fang takes a 2handed and makes it 1handed. It never has that opportunity if it is larger than 2handed.
- Gauss
Not really, Amiri uses a large 1handed weapon. A Bastard Sword is not a 2handed weapon. It is used in 2 handed style if you do not have the proper feat.
Bastard sword = 1 handed -> large bastard sword = 2handed
Earth Breaker = 2 handed -> Large Earth breaker = unusable
So, EWP allows you to use a Bastard Sword 1handed, then it becomes 2handed when sized for large.
However, Thunder and Fang takes a 2handed and makes it 1handed. It never has that opportunity if it is larger than 2handed.
- Gauss
It doesn't say appropriately sized so I think by RAW it makes a Large Earth Breaker 2 handed and Med one 1 handed.
Then you can choose to use a Klar with it./
I think it is up for interpretation.
A Bastard Sword is a 1handed (or 2handed) weapon that is made 2handed (or unusable) when in large form.
A Earth Breaker is a 2handed (or 1handed) weapon that is made unusable (or 2handed) when in large form.
See the difference? First, we start with what the weapon category is. Then we determine the feats. Since the weapon category starts as unusable and THEN proceeds to 2handed it violates the statement where it makes the Earth Breaker one handed. It never passed through that step.
- Gauss
*Sighs* I get so tired of the distinction between a 1 or 2 handed weapon and *USING* or *WIELDING* it as a 1 or 2 handed weapon.
I had already stated it was a 1handed weapon. My post was about the hands required even though I didn't put the aforementioned magical words.
How about reading the intent rather than the specific (pedantic) wording?
It isn't like you did not know what I meant BBT since we clearly are on the same side.
- Gauss
I'll say I'm not really 100% certain. I could honestly go either way with it.
Either seems like a reasonable interpretation, especially since the difference between a large bastard sword and a large earth breaker is 3d6 vs 2d8. On average the earthbreaker deals 1 point more damage. They both require a feat if we believe that the earthbreaker can be use at all as a large weapon. Definitely doesn't seem like a problem, but I will admit I'm not certain about how to parse all the relevant rules.
I disagree KainPen, one handed should be allowed to be used two handed. They just need to use different wording.
In another thread I suggested light, moderate, and heavy categories instead of light, one-handed, and two-handed. Then language stating how many hands can be used (1 for light, 1 or 2 for moderate, 2 for heavy). That way, the wording can be CLEARLY based off of weapon category or handedness.
- Gauss