Idk about you but I spend 8 feats on hitting the guy harder if you count power attack. It's hard to find decent feats for the fighter. It takes like 4 books to put together my build.
Ofcourse little things like ignoring 10 points of DR or preventing withdraw actions and 5ft steps are the unique experiences you get as a fighter that other martials are too careful with their feats to grab.
Nobody tried to ignore the rage limit for barbars because the fighter needs to use one weapon, the person was pointing out the weakness of a fighter since the weakness of a barbarian had been pointed out. If we are talking about spending near-useless feats then might I point out that there is a feat that expands Barbar's rage but nothing expand Mr.Allday Fighter's weapon training.There is a magic item for that. Feats and money are both currency, you can spend one to replace the other pretty easily.
And a Barbarian can get a Furious Courageous weapon/AoMF. Whatever. It always kind of annoys me when niche items are brought up in discussions like this. I understand it's relevant in a meta sense, but at the same time (at least in my experience) a player is much more likely to be able to get whatever official Paizo class option or feat he wants than whatever highly specialized or obscure magical item he wants. Not trying to be an ass to you GenericDrift, just talking about something that bothers me a bit in general.
As for your pounce statement, it is vastly more difficult to get pounce as any other class as the barbarian. The ways I know of are: 3 levels in horizon walker + an extensive non-combat-feat chain of Dimensional Agility which won't come online until 15th level or so, AND is much more limited than barbarian rounds per day. And by going horizon walker you're not really saying any class can get pounce, you're saying any character can get pounce by spending a bunch of skill points and mostly useless feats to take 3 levels in a class for the sole reason of dimension door 3/day. Another way I can think of is to spend 3 feats on skill focus (knowledge), eldritch heritage: arcane, and improved familiar, and buy a wand of dimension door. However, improved familiar requires a caster level, so a fighter can't get it that way either. Finally, you can spend money on quick runner's shirts, which would only give you pounce once per fight (since you'd have to change shirts), AND is banned from PFS (I believe).
Cool beans you've done your homework!
But your Kung-Fu is still weak.
Dimensional Dervish is available at 11th for most classes that want it 1 level later than the earliest barbarian's can take it. It costs three feats, but than Rage Powers are better than feats right? Oh and yes it is more limited than how often a barbarian can do it. BUUTTTTT it's not often a barbarian can pounce across the canyon, through the enemy troops the wall of force, and the dragon to murder the crap out of the king. So there's that. Also keep in mind a caster without a means to regain spells at least a little bit by the time a barbarian can pounce pretty much not that effective anyway.
My synthesist can actually pounce at first level if he wanted (he often doesn't because most things die in one attack anyway).
Druids don't even spend resources on it. Their wild shape just straight up gives it to them sooner than the barbarian.
Maguses can do it from 7th level onward. Spell Combat and Force Hook charge being beautifully synergistic things.
Paladins can actually qualify for it too believe it or not with Unsanctioned Knowledge. It's actually harder for them than it is for fighters.
Because it turns out fighters have two different archetypes that can give them a full attack with a move; Dervish of Dawn at 11th, Mobile Fighter at 11th in these examples I'm losing my highest BAB attack. Kind of sucks but I didn't spend any feats, rage powers, nor do I have to be raging to do it. I just do.
By the by do you like mounted combat? Did you know that by 14th level any mounted character can qualify for a form of pounce?
I can pounce with Catfolk (easy even with a rogue), Monks (even the base class can do it), Inquisitors (without Dim. Dervish but far more limited), Alchemists (I can do it by 6th!), holy crap it's like I got pounces just falling out of my ears here I don't know how the gm can even handle all these full attacks after a move action.
So, let's just say in terms of pounce Barbarian's are sort of in the middle ground when it comes to ease. Some classes it costs pretty much nothing. Other's it's a lot harder. But let's not pretend like it's out of reach for everyone or that it's somehow impossible to get. The difficulty in getting it versus the value of it is solely dependent upon the value put to t. It's apparently valuable to barbarin's at level 10 after investing two fairly mediocre rage powers into it. Good for you. Lot's of us will do it by next level, some of us were doing it way sooner, and the rest of us were working on other thigns before getting to it eventually.
And honestly who the heck needs pounce anyway? I'll just shoot the bastard with my damn bow if I'm going for the end all of effectiveness. Pounce just happens to be a more fun way to do it.
As for fighters. Frankly I don't care anymore. I'm a tired old soul whose argued a thousand times on both sides of the fence whose not even sure why I responded to the thread. What I've discovered is that it's not a fence but a bloody ocean of options and it's better to work out what you need at the very core of the game rather than sweat the stupid details. Am I going to fret my little undies because krognar hits harder and has better saves in his little world where everyone has UMD (and thus no one does!) and I absolutely have to have weapon focus and friends to be competitive (I don't have +2 attack and +4 damage? oh noooeess!) ? I think I'd rather just pick up a class and crush the opposition in whatever way I feel like rather than give a crap about what's more effective. I'm more effective and that's what counts. I can do quite a lot with both classes and find neither to be particularly more powerful than the other. It's all just a question of how much effort you want to put into doing it well.
Stop setting such silly goal posts for yourself and others gentlemen. The game is bigger than that.
P.s. Ok I admit I can't find a good way to make rangers pounce.
You can't get pounce unless you are a high level barbarian or druid, but you can get psuedo-pounce via 20 levels in Dervish Dancer. Still not a practical way for non-druid/barbarians to get pounce though.
Read my psot above. If you look at what pounce really is (and where it's value lies) you realize most of the classes that want it can in fact pounce.
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Cool beans you've done your homework!
But your Kung-Fu is still weak.
1.Dimensional Dervish is available at 11th for most classes that want it 1 level later than the earliest barbarian's can take it. It costs three feats, but than Rage Powers are better than feats right? Oh and yes it is more limited than how often a barbarian can do it. BUUTTTTT it's not often a barbarian can pounce across the canyon, through the enemy troops the wall of force, and the dragon to murder the crap out of the king. So there's that. Also keep in mind a caster without a means to regain spells at least a little bit by the time a barbarian can pounce pretty much not that effective anyway.
2.My synthesist can actually pounce at first level if he wanted (he often doesn't because most things die in one attack anyway).
3.Druids don't even spend resources on it. Their wild shape just straight up gives it to them sooner than the barbarian.
4.Maguses can do it from 7th level onward. Spell Combat and Force Hook charge being beautifully synergistic things.
5.Paladins can actually qualify for it too believe it or not with Unsanctioned Knowledge. It's actually harder for them than it is for fighters.
6.Because it turns out fighters have two different archetypes that can give them a full attack with a move; Dervish of Dawn at 11th, Mobile Fighter at 11th in these examples I'm losing my highest BAB attack. Kind of sucks but I didn't spend any feats, rage powers, nor do I have to be raging to do it. I just do.
7.By the by do you like mounted combat? Did you know that by 14th level any mounted character can qualify for a form of pounce?
8.I can pounce with Catfolk (easy even with a rogue), Monks (even the base class can do it), Inquisitors (without Dim. Dervish but far more limited), Alchemists (I can do it by 6th!), holy crap it's like I got pounces just falling out of my ears here I don't know how the gm can even handle all these full attacks after a move action.
9.So, let's just say in terms of pounce Barbarian's are sort of in the middle ground when it comes to ease. Some classes it costs pretty much nothing. Other's it's a lot harder. But let's not pretend like it's out of reach for everyone or that it's somehow impossible to get. The difficulty in getting it versus the value of it is solely dependent upon the value put to t. It's apparently valuable to barbarin's at level 10 after investing two fairly mediocre rage powers into it. Good for you. Lot's of us will do it by next level, some of us were doing it way sooner, and the rest of us were working on other thigns before getting to it eventually.
And honestly who the heck needs pounce anyway? I'll just shoot the bastard with my damn bow if I'm going for the end all of effectiveness. Pounce just happens to be a more fun way to do it.
As for fighters. Frankly I don't care anymore. I'm a tired old soul whose argued a thousand times on both sides of the fence whose not even sure why I responded to the thread. What I've discovered is that it's not a fence but a bloody ocean of options and it's better to work out what you need at the very core of the game rather than sweat the stupid details. Am I going to fret my little undies because krognar hits harder and has better saves in his little world where everyone has UMD (and thus no one does!) and I absolutely have to have weapon focus and friends to be competitive (I don't have +2 attack and +4 damage? oh noooeess!) ? I think I'd rather just pick up a class and crush the opposition in whatever way I feel like rather than give a crap about what's more effective. I'm more effective and that's what counts. I can do quite a lot with both classes and find neither to be particularly more powerful than the other. It's all just a question of how much effort you want to put into doing it well.
Stop setting such silly goal posts for yourself and others gentlemen. The game is bigger than that.
P.s. Ok I admit I can't find a good way to make rangers pounce.
#'d for convenience of response
You're right, I missed a lot of the pounce options. I deliberately left the fighter options out because they are generally considered to be trap archetypes that trade out so much their minor pounces don't make up for it.
1. Explain please. I'm not sure I follow to be honest. If you're saying the Horizon Walker dip, then I want to point out that: it's 3 feats plus the PrC prereqs, it's not every class can get it, it's every class can dramatically set back their progression to get this. It's more than feats, it's three class levels, which are much more valuable. Dimensional Dervish is also limited to double movement...so it's not that far...
2-4. I'd prefer this discussion to be more martial focused, heck barb v fighter really, since that is what OP was talking about, but I'll bite. You're right. Druid has multiple options to get pounce (a couple forms plus the Plains domain), dang near any summoner can get pounce, which is pretty insane. Summon creatures with pounce, summon them right next to enemies, take the biped form and spend a single evolution point...there's a reason people find summoners broken. As for Maguses, yea, they rock too. Spell Combat Force Hook, Bladed Dash, etc, they're good.
5. I'd forgotten about this feat. Even though I have had 2 paladins now, I've never bothered with the feat. 3 of the paladin's last 4 feats will be spent on this chain, meaning they get pounce at 18th level.
6. Well, I sorta answered this already.
7. I was only recently made aware of this feat, and am quite impressed(and forgot about it). Sadly, PFS, which is my main pathfinder outlet, hates mounted combat. There are way too many ways to cripple mounted combat unless a small sized character.
8. Catfolk pounce, monks get their full pounce at level 16, and Beastmorph alchemist is awesome. Just stupid awesome. If I may say, unless the alchemist imbibed his mutagen ahead of time (entirely reasonable given how long it lasts) he's still spending an action drinking it.
9. My last thing is even with all of available pounce abilities, pounce is still very important to melees. On top of that, the barbarian doesn't have to spend much to get it, and while it's not core, as the second book released it's a bit more common than UC where most of these options come from. It doesn't come with prerequisites like int 13, or losing the strongest attack. Finally, due to RAW buse (unless this has been errata'd, but last I heard it was still legal) Pounce, and not Dimensional Assault or the others, can be used to make a staggered charge or a suprise round charge (which is why I think the errata would be wrong, pounce was made for the tiger leaping from stealth. The fact that it has gotten out to the martials is sad, but it helps them out a ton).
EDIT: I looked and I don't see Mobile Fighter as too much of a trap now that I take a second look. The loss of weapon training sucks, and it's replacement really does suck especially because it doesn't work with gloves). Still, being able to move full speed in armor, and getting the weakened weapon training only when you take the demi-pounce is okay. The Dervish is really sub-par in comparison I think, because while it retains the weapon training, I think the thing going for mobile fighters is their ability to stay armored.
As for the pouncing ranger: Horse is an Animal Companion option, so they can take the mounted possibility. Beyond that, who doesn't make archer rangers? Though archers are impeded by wind and dungeon corners(sorta a moot-ish point, corners stop charge lanes too...unless you took that one mounted combat feat that lets you turn and charge).
1. Explain please. I'm not sure I follow to be honest. If you're saying the Horizon Walker dip, then I want to point out that: it's 3 feats plus the PrC prereqs, it's not every class can get it, it's every class can dramatically set back their progression to get this. It's more than feats, it's three class levels, which are much more valuable. Dimensional Dervish is also limited to double movement...so it's not that far...
I should have clarified. Every class that wants it is pretty much every class that can cast dimension door at 7th. Which includes all the arcane spellcasting classes and some divine classes if they take certain choices, (minus bards who probably don't want it at 11th anyway because Discordant Voice exists).
My focus on pounce is not the "pounce" ability but the ability to move/full attack which is where all the appeal for it comes.
9. My last thing is even with all of available pounce abilities, pounce is still very important to melees. On top of that, the barbarian doesn't have to spend much to get it, and while it's not core, as the second book released it's a bit more common than UC where most of these options come from. It doesn't come with prerequisites like int 13, or losing the strongest attack. Finally, due to RAW buse (unless this has been errata'd, but last I heard it was still legal) Pounce, and not Dimensional Assault or the others, can be used to make a staggered charge or a suprise round charge (which is why I think the errata would be wrong, pounce was made for the tiger leaping from stealth. The fact that it has gotten out to the martials is sad, but it helps them out a ton).
Well outside RAWbuse there are plenty of reasons why pounce is, well, sometimes just plain worse than the other means of move/full attack.
Pounce's limitations lie in the charge rules. Straight lines, no hindering terrain, no allies in the way etc. etc.
Heck an inordinate amount of investment was made in AM BARBARIAN just so he could charge relatively freely.
Many of the options described above don't have those limitations. We agreed Rapid Attack kind of sucks right? One advantage is that it works all the time. You lose the attack, certainly, but here's the thing; You can move however you like and even move afterward once the full attack is made. Meaning, from a defensive standpoint Rapid Attack is actually superior since you do not end your turn next to angry baddies with a further compromised AC. Funny that. I don't know who thought Dawnflower Dervish was a trap archetype. They must like Armor training a lot. Oh sure the mobile fighter can't use Duelist gloves. Darn, big trap archetype that is. I can't take a magic item I might nto ahve access to anyway. :/
Than of course we get into D. Door. Which ignores pretty much everything. Double move can actually be quite a lot for some characters.
And remember you're still investing three feats (or powers) to get pounce. It doesn't cost nothing.
I think the only thing left to say is that this whole silly thread is assuming the fighter is playing the barbarian's game. Why should I? He's going to beat me in the two handing game good for him. Let me focus on combat maneuvers, critical feats, playing around with Eldritch heritage, archery, stealing his rage powers with my bonus feats or just specializing heavily in the style of my choice. There are plenty of things I can do better.
Because it turns out fighters have two different archetypes that can give them a full attack with a move; Dervish of Dawn at 11th, Mobile Fighter at 11th in these examples I'm losing my highest BAB attack. Kind of sucks but I didn't spend any feats, rage powers, nor do I have to be raging to do it. I just do.
You didn't spend any Feats, Rage Powers, or anything, no.
You just traded in your Armor Training and/or Weapon Training in the latter case to do it. And your most likely to hit attack.
That's still a trade-off bruh.
And Dimension Dervish isn't available for Monks until 17th at the earliest.
Alchemists don't get it at all, unless you're looking at a different Formulae list than I am. They don't get Dimension Door. And they certainly wouldn't qualify at 6th, since they also wouldn't meet the BaB requirement until 8th anyway.
Force Hook Charge only allows a single attack with Spell Combat, not a full attack action. Therefore, not Pounce. It's a Charge.
Mounted Skirmish, again, only comes online at level 15 at the earliest (unless you're a Fighter, in which case 14), and uses a pretty s#!*ty attack form to do so.
Claw Pounce (Catfolk) ONLY allows Pounce with your 1d4 damage claw attacks (not with any other Natural Attacks you may have either).
In short, Barbarian, Summoner, and Druid are the only classes that actually get POUNCE, not some pseudo-Pounce that only works in certain circumstances or with certain resources used.
I dunno if you should be the one commenting on other people's Kung Fu.
I read some of this stuff before but not in this context :-)
You guys are great - thanks for this great input!
One other point Damage Reduction:
DR through invulnerable rager (barbarian) is often a big argument, that the barbarian is better than the fighter, but the armor master (fighter) can get DR 12 and ad the DR stacks with that provided by adamantine armor - so he get DR 15 at lvl 19. OK, the invulnerable rager get DR 20 against non lethal DMG, but I think DR 15 AND heavy Amor + shield (Deflective Shield ability: +6 AC) is the better choice.
The problem with Armor Master (though it makes a GREAT Tank) is that it trades in Weapon Training for it, so the Barbarian ends up with a higher damage output in that case.
He's a defensive juggernaut, but of average damage output at best. I really wish this game rewarded defense more because that would be a stellar archetype if so.
As-is it's just okay, not great.
The problem with Armor Master (though it makes a GREAT Tank) is that it trades in Weapon Training for it
The invulnerable rager gives up dodge, but, yes, you are right.
I really wish this game rewarded defense more because that would be a stellar archetype if so.
You are right. One of our group members has a high AC, but this was only good in the first levels, now all foes has a better attack and hit him, too. It´s still nice (my barbarian get damage everytime and he only 50%) but it seems that DR is better in higher levels than AC.
Yeah, but giving up Uncanny Dodge and Trap Sense (lol) is like a Fighter giving up Bravery and Tower Shield Proficiency.
A Fighter giving up Weapon Training is like a Barbarian giving up Rage, it's his main schtick besides all the Feats.
But yeah DR is definitely better than AC at higher levels. My Invulnerable Rager would have died earlier this evening without his sweet DR 5/- because Wyverns (Half-Dragon Wyverns, apparently) are a~~@$+%s and have a bonus to-hit almost as high as my AC (25 while Raging. Not super-duper I know, but it was either that or end up with 5 Int as well as Cha).
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Alchemists don't get it at all, unless you're looking at a different Formulae list than I am. They don't get Dimension Door. And they certainly wouldn't qualify at 6th, since they also wouldn't meet the BaB requirement until 8th anyway
I believe they're talking about either taking a form with one of their extracts (Beastshape X) or more likely the Beastmorph Archetype, which does give Pounce at level ten while under the influence of your Mutagen. Although for DD, I'll agree that it's not an option.
One of the things that can be said about the barbarian is they get half their stuff pretty early on and then it just scales with level. Half the fighter stuff has no scaling and most of their cool stuff comes pretty late in level in big chunks.
Underline this and write it bigger!
I think this is the biggest benefit of the barbarian class wich make many people think, that the barbarian is too good, because he is good at the low, middle and the high levels:
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Yar. The Barbarian, unlike the Fighter, has no "dead levels". The Barbarian is always getting better at something and getting something NEW.
Hell, even the Paladin and Ranger have some dead levels, though they still have less of them than the Fighter.
The Fighter basically IS dead levels with regards to anything interesting. If Feats allowed you to do new things more often (i.e. there were more Feats that gave new options, and at lower levels) it'd be a different story, but the Fighter is basically a level 1-20 character who gets nothing but "+1 to X" and "+2 to Y" with the occasional "Holy s**& that's pretty neat, too bad I had to wait until BaB 11+ to get it!".
My fighter gets a feat every level. What is dead about that?
My fighter gets a feat every level. What is dead about that?
10 of those 21 feats are feats everybody else gains by leveling too.
so those 10 general feats don't count as class features
11 feats over the course of 20 levels?
more like 7 feats, because your massive damage advantage depends on the weapon specialization chain, if playing with 3.5 material, make that 5 feats because you also require melee (or ranged) weapon mastery and steadfast determination (con instead of wis to will saves)
melee weapon mastery (3.5 PHB2) allowed you to choose a damage type dealt by any weapon that you had weapon specialization in. as long as the weapon had the option of dealing that damage type. it received the shared bonus of all weapon specific feats of the appropriate weapon (weapon focus/mastery line, improved critical etc) and all applicable weapons recieved +2 to attack and damage as an additional boon
for example. if you had weapon specialization (longsword) and improved critical (longsword) and chose melee weapon mastery (slashing), your feat based bonuses with the longsword would apply to all slashing weapons, and all slashing weapons would recieve an additional +2 to attack and damage, so every slashing weapon you use, from dagger, to longsword, to greatsword, got +3 to hit, +4 to damage and a doubled threat range, at 12 level, every slashing weapon would get +4 to hit, +6 to damage, and a doubled threat range, and at 18th, you could use any slashing weapon while grappled. regardless of handedness. if the qualifying weapon had a secondary damage type you could use, you used the higher applicable bonus of the two.
melee weapon mastery/ranged weapon mastery were must haves for fighters, not because of the damage boost (Gravy) but because they allowed you to use any weapon who used the same damage type from the treasure horde without issue.
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1.) The Barbarian isn't above APL appropriate power level, in any way, even if he takes the most optimal Rage Power allocation (the aforementioned Beast Totem/Superstition/Spell Sunder one).
Any character that can end an APL appropriate encounter in a single round by itself is above APL appropriate power.
Barbarians can do this from level 1 - 20.
They receive sufficient Rage to do so consistently throughout an adventuring day.
You didn't spend any Feats, Rage Powers, or anything, no.You just traded in your Armor Training and/or Weapon Training in the latter case to do it. And your most likely to hit attack.
That's still a trade-off bruh.
Which also gives me other things as well. I never said it was free, so cut the tone. It was others acting like the barbarian was getting sumthin fer nuthin.
And Dimension Dervish isn't available for Monks until 17th at the earliest.
Again, never said it was early. My point was that it's available.
Alchemists don't get it at all, unless you're looking at a different Formulae list than I am. They don't get Dimension Door. And they certainly wouldn't qualify at 6th, since they also wouldn't meet the BaB requirement until 8th anyway.
Beastmorph alchemist. Though I do admit my error in that it was 10th where they can pounce. I got my Beast shapes mixed up.
Force Hook Charge only allows a single attack with Spell Combat, not a full attack action. Therefore, not Pounce. It's a Charge.
The spell puts you adjacent to the target. Spell combat lets you take a full attack before or after a spell. So let's review. Spell combat: cast force hook charge, you are now adjacenet, full attack. You have now moved and full attacked. What does that sound like again?
Mounted Skirmish, again, only comes online at level 15 at the earliest (unless you're a Fighter, in which case 14), and uses a pretty s$!%ty attack form to do so.
I never realized how crappy fighting on a mount was. Somebody better call AM BARBARIAN.
Claw Pounce (Catfolk) ONLY allows Pounce with your 1d4 damage claw attacks (not with any other Natural Attacks you may have either).
ACtually by Raw it's just with claws period. I can get more claw attacks if I like. I've gotten upwards of 6 before.
In short, Barbarian, Summoner, and Druid are the only classes that actually get POUNCE, not some pseudo-Pounce that only works in certain circumstances or with certain resources used.I dunno if you should be the one commenting on other people's Kung Fu.
I don't know. You seem to lack any. You've deliberately misread things, didn't bother to check what I was talking about, and literally missed the whole point I was trying to make.
The point I made was that anyone can get "pounce" in some form or another. I even pointed out how some are limited, some are better, and some are better off without. Hell, I can get it on my damn wizard.
In short, we're done sir.
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Any character that can end an APL appropriate encounter in a single round by itself is above APL appropriate power.
Unless, of course, it has spells. Because when you bring in a wizard, he has spells that can end encounters from level 1 (colorspray) to level 20 (I shouldn't have to elaborate on this). Or a witch that can knock out the BBEG with a slumber hex. Or the Magus who spellstrikes with intensified maximized shocking grasp. You seem to forget that while a lot of MARTIAL classes can't end encounters in one round, almost all casters can. Does that mean all casters are above APL also? It isn't just Barbar that kills things in 1 round, Barbar just does it in a more fun way than Mr. Potter and his flashy magic.
1.) The Barbarian isn't above APL appropriate power level, in any way, even if he takes the most optimal Rage Power allocation (the aforementioned Beast Totem/Superstition/Spell Sunder one).Any character that can end an APL appropriate encounter in a single round by itself is above APL appropriate power.
Barbarians can do this from level 1 - 20.
They receive sufficient Rage to do so consistently throughout an adventuring day.
Unless the encounter consists of a single enemy standing right in front of the Barbarian, I don't see how he can end an encounter in a single round.
And if the encounter does consist of a single enemy, action economy would make it a joke anyway.
Besides, any archer can do that... Do you think archers are OP because they can kill stuff? High damage is not game-breaking... It's not even that important at higher levels...
The only non-full caster class that is truly OP is the Summoner, and even then, vanilla summoner wouldn't even be broken if he had a normal spell list, instead of a 9-levels spell list disguised as a 6-levels one.
Master Summoner would still be freaking broken, though...
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Any character that can end an APL appropriate encounter in a single round by itself is above APL appropriate power.Unless, of course, it has spells. Because when you bring in a wizard, he has spells that can end encounters from level 1 (colorspray) to level 20 (I shouldn't have to elaborate on this). Or a witch that can knock out the BBEG with a slumber hex. Or the Magus who spellstrikes with intensified maximized shocking grasp.
How many of those have severely limited usage and/or opponents with a blanket immunity?
How many times per day can a barbarian swing an axe?
And the magus is not spellstriking anything at level 1(for a whopping 1d6), certainly not using intensified maximized shocking grasp until much later in the game.
You seem to forget that while a lot of MARTIAL classes can't end encounters in one round, almost all casters can. Does that mean all casters are above APL also? It isn't just Barbar that kills things in 1 round, Barbar just does it in a more fun way than Mr. Potter and his flashy magic.
I was not talking martial classes in general. I was talking about the barbarian specifically.
Now. If we want to lower the barbarian to a d6 hit points, place a limit on the number of times per day he can swing his sword, and make undead, constructs, elementals, oozes and most outsiders immune to most of his damage for the first few levels.....
At that point the barbarian and wizard would just about be even. At high level both classes can end most encounters quickly. At 15+ the entire game system breaks down. For barbarians (pouncing for 500+ DPR) just as much as wizards casting high level spells.
If you think you don't need skill points to use UMD I'd suggest you go back and check the skill system again.
You don't need skill points to for UMD. Here's how you do it with out skill points.
You purchase a headband of Vast Intelligence +2 where the skill is UMD. Then you pick up a couple feat, skill focus and magical aptitude. For for 4000 GP and a few feats you have UMD with no skill points.
If you think you don't need skill points to use UMD I'd suggest you go back and check the skill system again.You don't need skill points to for UMD. Here's how you do it with out skill points.
You purchase a headband of Vast Intelligence +2 where the skill is UMD. Then you pick up a couple feat, skill focus and magical aptitude. For for 4000 GP and a few feats you have UMD with no skill points.
Skill points gained from magic items are still skill points.
Which also gives me other things as well. I never said it was free, so cut the tone. It was others acting like the barbarian was getting sumthin fer nuthin.
I'm just saying you can't have it both ways.
"The Fighter can deal more damage than the Barbarian and move in Full Plate at normal speed!" if he has Armor and Weapon Training.
"The Fighter can also Pounce!"...if he gives up one or both of those and his highest BaB attack, thus making the first point entirely moot.
Beastmorph alchemist. Though I do admit my error in that it was 10th where they can pounce. I got my Beast shapes mixed up.
You put it in there next to all the DD references, my bad.
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The spell puts you adjacent to the target. Spell combat lets you take a full attack before or after a spell. So let's review. Spell combat: cast force hook charge, you are now adjacenet, full attack. You have now moved and full attacked. What does that sound like again?
Let's review the actual wording of the spell, shall we?
"If you use this spell with your spell combat class ability, you can make your melee attack from your starting position or your ending position."
"Attack". Not AttackS, not "All your attacks", not "Multiple attacks". Attack. Singular.
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I never realized how crappy fighting on a mount was. Somebody better call AM BARBARIAN.
Because AM BARBARIAN is totally a legal build anyone can pull off in any game they wish OH WAIT.
I mean good god man it says right in the description of the build that it ENTIRELY RELIES ON being on a flat plane 2000 feet away from the target.
Master Summoner would still be freaking broken, though...
Lies master summoner is a balanced class. The only problem with it is that an unskilled player can took FOREVER to complete their turn.
Ofcourse I've never taken more than a minute with my turn and that was with 6+ creatures out.
Master Summoner would still be freaking broken, though...Lies master summoner is a balanced class. The only problem with it is that an unskilled player can took FOREVER to complete their turn.
Ofcourse I've never taken more than a minute with my turn and that was with 6+ creatures out.
I'll just assume you're trolling and ignore this comment...
I'll just assume you're trolling and ignore this comment...Master Summoner would still be freaking broken, though...Lies master summoner is a balanced class. The only problem with it is that an unskilled player can took FOREVER to complete their turn.
Ofcourse I've never taken more than a minute with my turn and that was with 6+ creatures out.
Not at all. I've had multiple threads about the master summoner that all ended in roughly a page with everyone agreeing they weren't overpowered.