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Hey folks.
I'm creating this thread about a situation that had me scratching my head a few weeks back. I was trying out the Summoner class and things were going nice until it came time for the faction missions (please read: Useless, annoying side-quests that at best devolve into a simple skill roll and at worst cause endless frustration for the GM, friction for players of opposing factions, occasionally completely distract from the actual mission-at-hand, and heavily discourage Pathfinders to follow their third tenet "Explore, Report, COOPERATE" ).
My faction mission was one of the better ones, and by that I meant all I had to do was make a perception check, which I failed yet my Eidolon succeeded. The GM thought that my Eidolon was incapable of helping me to search for books on a shelf ( or a letter on a desk, or WHATEVER, FORGET YOU, YOU'LL DO IT ). I was confused as to why my Eidolon would be incapable of assisting me in these tasks.
The GM's view was that my Eidolon, as a summoned creature, was too stupid to do anything but perform basic tasks, like mauling goblins until they make that crunching sound.
My view centered around the idea that my Eidolon, bearing an INT score of 7 (some of you have characters with INT scores lower than that) and fully capable of speaking any language I speak, is fully capable of a thought process along the lines of "Oh, you're looking for a letter? I'll keep my eyes open".
Discuss! :-)
The GM's view was that my Eidolon, as a summoned creature, was too stupid to do anything but perform basic tasks, like mauling goblins until they make that crunching sound.
I think he had the eidolon confused with something else. If it can speak and know all the languages you do its probably smart enough to search a shelf.
Edit: I should probably not that he was wrong RAW though.
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Heck, even an animal can be trained to hunt for something (maybe not a letter but still). And I don't see why it was unfair to have an extra set of eyes, since if you can take a twenty to search for traps on a door, seems like you could take a twenty to find a letter in a room.
My guess is he probably just does not have enough experience with summoners. It's a little harder to deal properly with classes you are not as familiar with.
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Heck, even an animal can be trained to hunt for something (maybe not a letter but still). And I don't see why it was unfair to have an extra set of eyes, since if you can take a twenty to search for traps on a door, seems like you could take a twenty to find a letter in a room.
My guess is he probably just does not have enough experience with summoners. It's a little harder to deal properly with classes you are not as familiar with.
I think the OP got the short stick here, I'd have allowed the Eidolon to find a letter provided you told him what to look for before rolling his check... that being said,wjsilver I think I read something about not being able to take 20 on Faction mission checks, correct me if I'm wrong.
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that being said,wjsilver I think I read something about not being able to take 20 on Faction mission checks, correct me if I'm wrong.
I don't recall hearing that rule before, but that doesn't mean anything. As a rule I normally decide case by case, depending on the skill check and context, but based on some of the other rules used for balance in PFS, I guess I wouldn't be too surprised to learn there is a rule to that effect.
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The Eidolon could assist with the check, However, if you are using your Eidolon as if it were a different PC, I'd make it roll separate initiative as well because if the Eidolon is intelligent enough to look for a letter and speak with you in whatever language you speak, the Eidolon is smart enough to react for itself IMO. Still you would have gotten the check.
sounds like yet another pfs gm screw-up
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The Eidolon could assist with the check, However, if you are using your Eidolon as if it were a different PC, I'd make it roll separate initiative as well because if the Eidolon is intelligent enough to look for a letter and speak with you in whatever language you speak, the Eidolon is smart enough to react for itself IMO. Still you would have gotten the check.
The eidolon needs to roll initiative separately regardless. The same goes for animal companions and familiars.
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As far as RAW, yes. You should be able to have your eidolon search with you.
My personal opinion is that you're using your eidolon the same way every other summoner does, as your main character and the "character" is the waste of flesh that stands in the back.
Every other player at the table would get one chance to complete the faction mission that they are given, but you want two chances because you're a summoner. It's a "Useless, annoying side-quest"; why do you care enough to want to use two skill rolls?
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As far as RAW, yes. You should be able to have your eidolon search with you.
My personal opinion is that you're using your eidolon the same way every other summoner does, as your main character and the "character" is the waste of flesh that stands in the back.
Every other player at the table would get one chance to complete the faction mission that they are given, but you want two chances because you're a summoner. It's a "Useless, annoying side-quest"; why do you care enough to want to use two skill rolls?
Because it's the only way to get the second PP?
Don't pretend you've never seen a faction mission that was pointless and barely related.
why do you care enough to want to use two skill rolls?
Why do you care so much that he doesn't? If I had the chance to do something beneficial to me I'd probably take it, and using animal companions, familiars, or summons to get the job done is a pretty quick and simple thought to me. Kind of arbitrary to take the chance away just because.
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pathar,
I was not stating faction missions are "useless and annoying", that was the OP's words.
MrSin,
I was attempting to point out the OP's opposition between the words they used and the actions they were taking.
The OP states in multiple points how they feel faction missions detract from scenarios, yet the OP takes actions to make the resolution of a faction mission take even longer than needed. Hypocrisy!
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pathar,
I was not stating faction missions are "useless and annoying", that was the OP's words.
Yes, Lanith. I got that from your use of quotation marks, and the fact that I read the opening statement.
My response to you was twofold: I was answering your question, and then addressing the premise of it.
The literal answer to your question is "Because not liking them doesn't mean he can just skip them without penalty."
The wording of your question implies a certain amount of disagreement with the OP's assessment of faction missions. My response to you was a reminder that some faction missions do, in fact, fit the description the OP used. I've seen DC 25 Knowledge (Nature) checks to pluck feathers from the wings of dead opponents. I've seen faction missions that, as written, require a Linguistics or Disable Device check--skills that cannot be used untrained and might not exist at the table depending on party composition--run by GMs who don't allow any alternative solutions. If you want to debate the use and quality of faction missions in another thread, I invite you to start that thread. But I think it's disingenuous to pretend that the complaint somehow invalidates the need to tolerate them, since they are part of the scenarios, and stand between the player and at least one of the prestige points they need to advance their character.
I was attempting to point out the OP's opposition between the words they used and the actions they were taking.
The OP states in multiple points how they feel faction missions detract from scenarios, yet the OP takes actions to make the resolution of a faction mission take even longer than needed. Hypocrisy!
No ... no. Hypocrisy is "a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not." The OP could be accused of hypocrisy if his/her mini-rant about the nature of faction missions was later revealed to be a front. Alternately, if the OP asserted the obligation to skip faction missions when they were stupid, and then went out of his way to fulfill them anyway, that would be hypocrisy.
Complaining about requirements while fulfilling them is not hypocrisy. Let's consider real-world examples. For instance, complaining about the speed limit while obeying it is not hypocrisy. Similarly, complaining about taxes while paying them is not hypocrisy. (In fact, I would describe both as "human nature.") It only becomes hypocrisy when the behavior doesn't match the recommended behavior: Someone who pays taxes while telling others not to, someone who obeys the speed limit while exhorting others to break it.
Further, I took the OP's complaint re: faction missions to be specific to the scenario, not general. I have encountered some scenarios where the faction missions are excellent, and others where the faction missions are asinine. I don't think it was intended to be the broad statement to which you are apparently responding.
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The Eidolon could assist with the check, However, if you are using your Eidolon as if it were a different PC, I'd make it roll separate initiative as well because if the Eidolon is intelligent enough to look for a letter and speak with you in whatever language you speak, the Eidolon is smart enough to react for itself IMO. Still you would have gotten the check.
I usually insist that my eidolon rolls a separate initiative.
After all, he took the improved initiative feat, giving him a far higher initiative modifier than my character.
And yes, the eidolon should be making its own perception checks whenever appropriate.
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Your Eidolon is so stupid...
that when you say attack, it goes looking for a tack
Edit: Sigh, ninja'd
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Your Eidolon is so stupid, when you asked it for a sandwich, you got hexed on a beach.
Your Eidolon is so stupid, it couldn't read a palindrome backwards
Your Eidolon is so stupid, when you said you were in pain, it thought you meant the county.
Your Eidolon is so stupid, it still thinks it needs a ticket to enter its home plane
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As far as RAW, yes. You should be able to have your eidolon search with you.
My personal opinion is that you're using your eidolon the same way every other summoner does, as your main character and the "character" is the waste of flesh that stands in the back.
Every other player at the table would get one chance to complete the faction mission that they are given, but you want two chances because you're a summoner. It's a "Useless, annoying side-quest"; why do you care enough to want to use two skill rolls?
"Every other player at the table would get one chance"
except for Wizards, Witches, Magus, etc etc etc
Your previous statements obviously show you have some strange qualms with summoners in the first place. I have yet to see another summoner in play, but my summoner and his Eidolon work in tandem.
Yeah, my summoner will cast Mage Armor on his Eidolon.
And then on the monk.
And then on the Kensai.
We all find our own niche in battle, and I'm so warm and fuzzy that you have a personal vendetta against mine.
And the faction missions may be an experience similar to pulling teeth, but it should be obvious that the reason I try to perform these duties is because of the reward, which carries the potential of affording life-saving wands.
Excuse me if I happen to notice a lot of agitated groans from BOTH sides of the GM screen whenever it comes time to DEAL with them.
In regard to the original situation -- since the summoner and the eidolon can communicate telepathically, the eidolon can not only understand relatively complex instructions from the summoner but can even do what the summoner wants with unclear instructions (since it can get any missing information from the summoner's head). Nobody in the game communicates better with each other than a summoner and his eidolon.