Crane Wing Question

[w01fe01]

Crane wing

Spoiler:

Once per round while using Crane Style, when you have at least one hand free and are either fighting defensively or using the total defense action, you can deflect one melee weapon attack that would normally hit you. You expend no action to deflect the attack, but you must be aware of it and not flat-footed. An attack so deflected deals no damage to you.

the wording here had my DM saying that natural attacks are not weapon attacks as per the description says in crane wing, therefore crane wing doesnt work against natural attacks (in this instance, claws). Is that correct? I thought it was any melee attack.

[blackbloodtroll]

Natural Weapons are weapon that creatures have naturally, and can use to make melee attacks.

Natural Weapons, are melee weapons.

[w01fe01]

ok thanks! are there any melee attacks that crane wing wouldnt work on? like a touch attack or something?

[blackbloodtroll]

Touch attacks, no.

Armed touch attacks, such as those delivered through an unarmed strike, or natural weapon, yes.

[w01fe01]

ok so as long as the touch attack is thru a melee attack basically it will work. sweet thanks.

[Brilliant Energy]

Also:

"Update: If the attack is deflected, not only does the target take no damage, but any other effects (ability drain, negative levels, harmful conditions, and so on) associated with that attack do not occur. If the deflected attack is a touch spell or other effect that requires "holding the charge," the charge is not expended. For example, if a ghoul's claw attack is deflected, the target is not subject to the ghoul's paralysis ability from the attack. If a shocking grasp touch attack is deflected, the attacker is still "holding the charge."

[w01fe01]

nice bit of additional info

[Kazumetsa Raijin]

Also keep in mind Crane's Wing when used is counted as Neither a miss OR hit as stated by the devs.

[StreamOfTheSky]

@BBT

"Touch attacks, no."

Crane Wing should deflect melee touch attacks as well. An attack with a melee touch spell is an armed attack.

[blackbloodtroll]

Now, Touch Attacks may count as an "armed attack", it is not suggested that it counts as a melee weapon attack.

A Natural Weapon Attack is most certainly a melee weapon attack though.

[lemeres]

I do not see why he needs to mess with natural attacks and crane wing like this when a natural attack heavy enemy is one of the hardest things for the feat to deal with anyway.

Crane wing works best against a single weapon user (such a 2handed weapon), where you take out the highest iterative and then rely upon your increased AC from fighting defensively, crane style, and the acrobatics boost to make the later iteratives even less effective. And most of the time this is great since these kinds of opponents tend to have the highest strength and damage without relying upon some kind of bosot. Facing an opponent that can send several different weapons that all have about the same attack bonus (TWF and especially natural attacks since they lack penalties and always deal full strength mod damage with primary attacks) means you will only take out one attack from many that are coming at you.

Unless he is using a 'one big bite' kind of monster. I can see why he might be a bit miffed when his suped up T-Rex, which was meant to almost decimate the party, can't even touch you.

[StreamOfTheSky]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Now, Touch Attacks may count as an "armed attack", it is not suggested that it counts as a melee weapon attack.

A Natural Weapon Attack is most certainly a melee weapon attack though.

As posted already:

"Update: If the attack is deflected, not only does the target take no damage, but any other effects (ability drain, negative levels, harmful conditions, and so on) associated with that attack do not occur. If the deflected attack is a touch spell or other effect that requires "holding the charge," the charge is not expended. For example, if a ghoul's claw attack is deflected, the target is not subject to the ghoul's paralysis ability from the attack. If a shocking grasp touch attack is deflected, the attacker is still "holding the charge."

Looks to me like it deflects touch spells JUST FINE... O_o

[David_Bross]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Now, Touch Attacks may count as an "armed attack", it is not suggested that it counts as a melee weapon attack.

A Natural Weapon Attack is most certainly a melee weapon attack though.

This may be a reasonable interpretation, but it certainly isn't the intent of the rules.

PRD wrote:

“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character's or creature's unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).

PRD wrote:

Natural Attacks Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon).

By this argument bard song doesn't work for natural weapons, as well as other repercussions. This is worth FAQing I guess.

EDIT
I was ninjaed by the above argument, which I think agrees with me as far as my statement about intent, that you can crane wing natural attacks (a good portion things who attack you in pathfinder use natural weapons), and you can get inspire courage on your druid's natural weapons.