One thing that bugged me about 3rd Edition, and that I felt 4th Edition did well, was to reduce the proportion of creatures in the cosmos that had greater-than-human visual senses.
Far as I can tell, there are only three species in all the infinite universes of Pathfinder that don't have special vision. To paraphrase The Incredibles, when everybody (and everything!) has super-vision, nobody does. The human, halfling, and lizardfolk actually have a hidden "racial disadvantage" instead.
So I'm just sounding out the notion of removing low-light from critters and downgrading darkvision in some cases to low-light. Where would you draw the line? Some of my first thoughts:
1) Darklands/Underdark creatures pretty much have to keep their darkvision. It's a little too fundamental there.
2) Goblinoids, for the most part, I'd downgrade to low-light vision. Gnolls and other largely-surface-raiding monsters I'd probably remove all special vision from. The same goes for giants - with the probable exception of stone giants.
3) Diurnal animals would no longer get low-light vision. Nocturnal ones keep it.
4) Outsiders, again, would have to be on a plane-by-plane basis. Plane of Shadow and Negative Energy Plane? They keep it. Inhabitants of the Plane of Fire & Positive Energy Plane should feel lucky to have even human-level vision...
Further thoughts?
At first glance it sounds quite reasonable. I'll have to give it a bit more thought.
I like it, and have reworked goblinoids with low-light vision. Not sure about outsiders, part of me wants to keep their genetic superiority.
Edit: i have also made two simple templates to punch on subteranian subraces.
1. darkvision 60 ft, light sensitivity
2. darkvision 120 ft, light blindness.
I'm pretty sure that undead - to keep them scary - need to keep darkvision. I may have to do a little research on "how bugs see" before I decide whether to split up the vermin like I did the animals...
I'm even contemplating the blasphemy of removing low-light vision from elves and gnomes - and, if orcs are downgraded to low-light, it follows that half-orcs would too. Dwarves... trouble me: That PC race's benefits are already a little on the strong side balance-wise, but it's hard to argue from a flavor standpoint that a primarily-subterranean race doesn't "deserve" darkvision. Low-light? I dunno.
On aberrations and plants, I have no idea and would welcome input.
I believe most bugs see through infravision (not completely sure, but...) Agreed on the undead. I wouldn't mind removing it from gnomes, but elves have that eagle-eye legolas trope. I would keep orcs with darkvision. They do live in caves. Don't forget to remove light sensitivity. I forgot, I removed darkvision from hobgoblins and bugbears, but goblins kept it. Aberrations could keep it, plants could loose it.
I am totally on board with the whole Elves, Gnomes fey creatures in general not having dark/infra/ultravision. It makes no sense, We are talking about the original smurfs after all.
"Oh no we dont go out after dark, after all its been a long day of leaping joyfully through the woods"
I'd say you're not going to cause much trouble. Too many races do have special vision without strong cause. Why would all fey have lowlight vision? Are they all out after dark every night? Just to name one example.
Oh, and for vermin: some insects actually see into the ultraviolet part of the spectrum (e.g. bees), while I believe some other arthropods see into the far-red/infrared parts of the spectrum.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Low-Light vision =/= Darkvision. Tree canopies in forests and such count as low-light areas for Low-Light Vision, that's why Fey and their descended races have it, they're natural forest dwellers.
And why most animals have it. Animal vision is, nine times out of ten, far superior to a human's, especially in situations of lower light.
Humans really do have pretty terrible vision, all things considered. There's a reason everything has better vision than us in the game: everything has better vision than us in real life too. And the things that don't typically don't use vision much anyway, and/or have something to replace it (echolocation, tremorsense, etc.).
Can we make distinctions between visions? Or maybe start getting other senses into the mix? Maybe Elves can see over long distances like a bird, but their low light vision isn't as strong as others? Or maybe Dwarves have excellent vision in terms of darkness and all that, but since they live underground they need glasses? Maybe Dhampirs can see at night, but they only see in black and white(except for blood)?
And on and on.
Orthos - I know what you mean; we humans are able to avoid being devoured by animals due to superior intellect and planning ability - if we relied purely on our senses we'd already be extinct. It's an acceptable trade-off here on Earth, but the choice of one or the other isn't as useful in Pathfinder, which has so many enemies of near-human, human, and superhuman intelligence. There's not much good in being smart enough to build a boma or a stockade around your settlement when the enemies out in the dark have mastered the construction of the trebuchet... and can see in the dark.
While I agree that most diurnal critters do have better-than-human vision in low light, it seems more suitable to me (balance-wise, not in terms of realism) to take it away from them than to kick the truly nocturnal critters up to the elusive Superior Low-Light Vision.
Vamptastic wrote: Maybe Dhampirs can see at night, but they only see in black and white(except for blood)? Well, ALL Darkvision is black-and-white unless specifically pointed out otherwise.
Orthos wrote: Vamptastic wrote: Maybe Dhampirs can see at night, but they only see in black and white(except for blood)? Well, ALL Darkvision is black-and-white unless specifically pointed out otherwise. Yeah, but I meant in a cool Dhampir way.
Well, the idea here was to reduce the number of unusual senses out there in Monsterland, but I won't claim it's not an interesting idea.
Vamptastic wrote: Yeah, but I meant in a cool Dhampir way. You mean like how dogs can see color even though technically they only see black and white, because of accuracy? Because that seems more like a Catfolk thing personally?
The reason there are only about 3 races without dark/low-light vision is the theory of evolution applies more or less to Golarion. The reason so many things have special vision is because the race evolved in a place like tunnels where there was no light, or a forest where there isn't much light. Humans and others that don't have these, don't have them because, and you can look at the real world for a comparison, we breed like rabbits and spread out ALL over the place. I imagine that all races that don't have special vision are roughly the same. I don't really think there is a problem with senses IMHO.
Actually, the pressures of natural selection don't apply much to campaign worlds, where most races were generated just a short time ago - in terms of speciation - by the gods. Although in extreme cases, such as a humanoid race made of living chocolate, natural selection can wipe out an entire race in a single generation.
Gnoll: They were so delicious!
Troll: Devouring them all seemed a good idea at the time, but now I miss them so much!
It occurs to me that when I reduce or eliminate special vision for so many creatures, Stealth-using characters are going to start exploiting that skill a little more. Any ideas on other impacts to game balance?
I don't know. Do Gnolls and Trolls even eat non-meat?
I like the idea, but I need to think a bit more about it. The strange commonality of Dark Vision has long irritated me; I tend to house rule it into Low Light Vision except for creatures that spend most of their time in the dark, and even then I consider Tremorsense and Blindsense first. Adding a default Light Sensitivity / Blindness for having Dark Vision 60 ft / 120 ft is a good idea (perhaps negated / reduced by feats; I'm nearly certain such feats already exist).
That said, there seem to be a few misconceptions about vision in the real world.
Insects often can see into the Ultraviolet, but no creature in real life can see heat with the exception of a few Families of snake, and the detail of their heat vision is still questioned. Also, nearly all mammals have red-green colorblindness; they see the world like this. Apes (or all monkeys?) regained their ability to see red / orange, as have a few other mammals.
Most birds can see from ultraviolet all the way through to red. Most reptiles and amphibians can see red just fine, although UV vision is spotty (some species have it, some don't). Fish and other underwater creatures can sometimes see red, but it is rare; UV vision is a little more common. What some of them (especially crustaceans) can see (that most out-of-water creatures cannot) is various forms of polarized light.
Having said all that, I will remark that I tend to remove undead Dark Vision and replace it with Low Light Vision and a supernatural Blindsense that only reveals the direction toward any living creature within X ft (varies by undead type: 15, 30, 60 ft), the fluff being that the negative energy that animates them is reacting to the positive energy of living creatures. The spell Hide from Undead specifically hides creatures from this undead sense.
Sounds vaguely similar to the 'life sense' of the Life Oracle... as soon as I read that, I thought, "That sounds more thematic for the undead than darkvision."
And those notes on various animal vision-variations may be useful.
How about dragons? Currently they gain vision that's unparalleled even by the standards of the PF universe. I'm not complaining about their exceptional Perception in general - a dragon getting its throat cut as it sleeps is the height of anticlimax - but I'm not sure super-long-range darkvision plus superior low-light vision is altogether justified. (Although, as an apex predator, they'd be quite accustomed to having to locate prey in hiding...)
I tend to have true dragons develop their incredible perception with age. It is not until they are a Great Wyrm that their senses are as sharp as indicated in the RaW. But even with the RaW, you need to consider the incredible limitations of Blindsense (ex). Extraordinary Blindsense is not supernatural because it is based upon natural senses that are incredibly sharp. So if a foe is invisible (Greater Invisibility), Silent (Silence), Scentless (Pass w/o Trace) and (if you presume some form of Tremorsense is involved with Blindsense) not touching the ground (any flight or even levitation spell), the PC should not be detected by Blindsense (ex). Of course, Blindsense (su) is another matter entirely.
That said, when the player moves near enough to the dragon for the 20 ft bubble of Silence centered upon the Player to also fall upon the dragon, the dragon is likely to realize something is amiss from the sudden exceptional lack of sound. Also, a dragon still receives Perception checks to notice the player, and even a young adult dragon often has a high enough Perception to cancel most of the benefit of moving while invisible (+20 to Stealth). Great Wyrms are perceptive enough to cancel out the benefit of Invisible even while still (+40 to Stealth). And if the dragon has See Invisible or (at later age categories) True Seeing active, well ....
I believe that Keen Low Light Vision, with their Perception rank, represents their apex predator nature. Dark Vision and Blindsense I have develop more gradually, as a result of their increasing magical nature (thus Dark Vision) and their increasingly long experience in using their exceptional senses (thus Blindsense).
Wyrmling . . . . . . Low Light Vision
Very Young . . . . Keen Low Light Vision, DV 15 ft
Young . . . . . . . . Keen Low Light Vision, DV 30 ft, Blindsense 10 ft
Juvenile . . . . . . Keen Low Light Vision, DV 40 ft, Blindsense 20 ft
Young Adult . . . . Keen Low Light Vision, DV 50 ft, Blindsense 20 ft
Adult . . . . . . . . . Keen Low Light Vision, DV 60 ft, Blindsense 30 ft
Mature Adult . . . Keen Low Light Vision, DV 70 ft, Blindsense 30 ft
Old . . . . . . . . . . Keen Low Light Vision, DV 80 ft, Blindsense 40 ft
Very Old . . . . . . Keen Low Light Vision, DV 90 ft, Blindsense 40 ft
Ancient . . . . . . . Keen Low Light Vision, DV 100 ft, Blindsense 50 ft
Wyrm . . . . . . . . Keen Low Light Vision, DV 110 ft, Blindsense 50 ft
Great Wyrm . . . . Keen Low Light Vision, DV 120 ft, Blindsense 60 ft
I can see how underground creatures would be nearsighted.
Lots of vampires in books, tv, and movies talk about how they can smell the living and hear their heartbeats.
Recent threads in Homebrew and House Rules
|
