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Morning all.
I've been toying around with a character concept, trying to see if I could come up with an effective Crossbreed Sorcerer that wasn't a dip for Evocation cheese, and its actually worked out to a really cool character concept. The idea is a sort of unseelie Fey who's natural appearance is a twisted combination of Fox and Serpent (though that's almost never seen) who is manipulative and controlling beyond anything you've ever seen. He could serve as a PC for either a good or evil campaign or as recurring villian, lots of options, really.
I started by going Kitsune for my race and selecting the Fey and Serpentine bloodlines. The goal was to maximize the foes I could use mind-affecting spells against and to take a number of metamagic feats to make use of those spell slots for which I would tecnically not know any spells - Heighten Spell in particular for that reason. The next goal was to (obviously) mximize the effectiveness of those spells which I think I've managed to do.
I have run into a few problems though - the first being Spell Resistance. Our group doesn't use it, instead applying an across the board +4 to saves vs. spells and spell-like effects for creatures that have SR... but I wanted to make a character that was transportable to other groups, so I'm trying to address it in the build but there doesn't seem to be enough room early on.
The next question is the value of an Animal Companion vs. the Kitsune ability Realistic Likeness (which has proven to be VERY effective in the past). My options would be:
Animal Companion
Take Sylvan Bloodline over Fey, losing a +2 bonus to Compulsion spell DC's.
Take and then forfeit Laughing Touch as a 1st level Bloodline power.
Take Boon Companion as my 3rd level feat
Take Snake Fang as a 3rd level Bloodline power.
Realistic Likeness
Keep the Fey bloodline and take Realistic Likeness as my 3rd level feat.
Take Snake Fang as a 1st level Bloodline power
Take Serpent Friend (viper familiar) as a 3rd level Bloodline power.
I suppose the difference is whether I'm building a character to be an infiltrator or a dungeon crawler, but without knowing what adventures may await me, I'm really torn. It may be that I'm better off just taking Heighten Spell earlier instead and pursuing the Arcane Bloodline via Eldritch Heritage feats (see below).
Apart from those issues, I'm really pleased with how the character has come together, but as always I'm looking for critique and advice from the board's many experts. The short version is that by 1st level I'm treating Animals, Magical Beasts and Monstrous Humanoids as Humanoids for the purposes of spells (like Charm/Hold/Dominate Person). By 7th level I'm affecting Undead with mind-affecting spells via Threnodic spell and by 13th level I'm affecting Oozes and Vermin as well via Coaxing Spell. With those expanded options in mind, I'm unsure as to whether my selection for Spell Perfection at 15th should be Dominate Person or Hold Monster.
Kitsune Cross-Blooded Sorcerer (Fey-Sylvan/Serpentine Bloodlines)
Feats:
1st - Eschew Materials
1st - Spell Focus: Enchantment
3rd - Realistic Likeness or Boon Companion
5th - Spell Focus: Necromancy
7th - Silent Spell *
7th - Threnodic Spell
9th - Heighten Spell
11th - Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
13th - Quicken Spell *
13th - Coaxing Spell
15th - Spell Perfection: Dominate Person or Hold Monster
17th - Spell Penetration
19th - Improved Initative *
19th - Greater Spell Penetration
[* - Bloodline feat]
Bloodline Powers:
1st - Snake Fang or Animal Companion
3rd - Serpent Friend or Snake Fang
9th - Fleeting Glance
15th - Fey Magic or Den of Vipers
20th - Soul of the Fey
DC bonuses:
+2 DC to Compulsion Spells (unless Animal Companion is taken)
+1 DC to Enchantments racial bonus
+1 DC/4 levels to Enchantments from favored class option
+2 DC from Spell Focus & Greater Spell Focus
+X DC from Charisma modifier
A final option I've been considering is to drop Realistic Likeness/Boon Companion altogether, along with Coaxing Spell and the Spell Penetrations and instead taking the Arcane Bloodline via Eldritch Heritage feats. That would give me an Arcane Bond to go along with my Viper Familiar, Expanded Arcana to make up for some of those spells lost from cross-breeding and School Power for even more potent Enchantment spells at later levels. That version would look something like this:
Feats:
1st - Eschew Materials
1st - Spell Focus: Enchantment
3rd - Heighten Spell
5th - Spell Focus: Necromancy
7th - Silent Spell *
7th - Threnodic Spell
9th - Skill Focus: Knowldge (Any)
11th - Eldritch Heritage: Arcane Bond
13th - Quicken Spell *
13th - Improved Eldritch Heritage: Expanded Arcana
15th - Spell Perfection: Dominate Person or Hold Monster
17th - Greater Eldritch Heritage: School Power
19th - Improved Initative *
19th - Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
Thoughts?
Bumpity-bump.
Ok, I have the following suggestions. I'm assuming your bloodlines are fixed for character concept, but your other choices are not.
1.) Laughing touch is good - snake fangs are lousy. Their poison DC won't scale well, because you probably won't have con as a high priority stat. I would take, in order: Laughing Touch, Viper Familiar, Fleeting Glance, Fey Magic, Scaled Soul.
2.) Viper Familiar will do fine - you can use the +2 DCs to your saves.
3.) You can't have a familiar and a bonded item. "This ability does not allow you to have both a familiar and a bonded item." <-- from sorc bloodline. Relatedly, familiars are way better.
4.) My suggested feat build would look like:
1st - Eschew Materials
1st - Spell Focus: Enchantment
3rd - Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
5th - Spell Focus: Necromancy
7th - Silent Spell *
7th - Threnodic Spell
9th - Improved Familiar
11th - Coaxing Spell
13th - Quicken Spell *
13th - Persistent Spell
15th - Spell Perfection: Dominate Person or Hold Monster
17th - Still Spell
19th - Improved Initiative *
19th - ???Some basic ideas here: Improved Familiar is amazing and you should always take it as soon as is humanly possible, which is 9th level for you.
You are using heighten spell to up DCs. instead, use Persistent Spell to up DCs, because it gives you about +4 to DC for 2 levels of meta, whereas Heighten gives you +2 for 2.
Finish life at level 19 with some skill focuses in social skills. You can affect almost anything with mind-affecting spells. And you'll have a suuuper-useful familiar.
-Cross
Really appreciate your reply. I have a few questions though:
I thought the poison from Snake Fang would be a great alternate option to casting and even planned on taking True Strike to make it work - didn't really occur to me that it wouldn't scale up very well.
I take it from your comments that you think I should probably let go of the AC option? To be fair it wouldn't be absurd to think that I eventually had a handful of dominated minions following me around anyway...
Why Scaled Soul over Soul of the Fey, especially when I'm wouldn't even be taking Snake Fang now? DR 10/cold iron sounds pretty nice...
I forgot about that no bonded item + familiar bit. Its an odd restriction, as I once ran an Arcane Duelist who took those feats and had two bonded items without any issues. Does that mean that I could potentially have two familiars? Also, I'm never sure when Improved Familiar works - the Bloodline power specifically calls out a Viper, but does that mean I could take Improved Familiar and swap it out with something else? Any particular reccomendations as I've never used that particular feat before?
Do you think that I should ditch the entire Arcane Eldritch Heritage line due to not getting a bonded object out of it? Expanded Arcana and School Power both seem pretty strong for this concept.
To clarify, I'm not using Heighten Spell to increase DC's. I'm actually using it so that I can take advantage of empty spell slots in those levels that I can technically cast a spell, but don't know any due to the penalties associated with being Crossblooded. I could drop it if I had to.
Thanks again for your responses - I'm excited about the concept but clearly need some input.
Ok, I have the following suggestions. I'm assuming your bloodlines are fixed for character concept, but your other choices are not.
1.) Laughing touch is good - snake fangs are lousy. Their poison DC won't scale well, because you probably won't have con as a high priority stat. I would take, in order: Laughing Touch, Viper Familiar, Fleeting Glance, Fey Magic, Scaled Soul.
2.) Viper Familiar will do fine - you can use the +2 DCs to your saves.
3.) You can't have a familiar and a bonded item. "This ability does not allow you to have both a familiar and a bonded item." <-- from sorc bloodline. Relatedly, familiars are way better.
4.) My suggested feat build would look like:
1st - Eschew Materials
1st - Spell Focus: Enchantment
3rd - Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
5th - Spell Focus: Necromancy
7th - Silent Spell *
7th - Threnodic Spell
9th - Improved Familiar
11th - Coaxing Spell
13th - Quicken Spell *
13th - Persistent Spell
15th - Spell Perfection: Dominate Person or Hold Monster
17th - Still Spell
19th - Improved Initiative *
19th - ???-Cross
Considering your advice, I'm thinking about something like this now:
1st - Eschew Materials
1st - Realistic Likeness
3rd - Spell Focus: Enchantment
5th - Spell Focus: Necromancy
7th - Silent Spell *
7th - Threnodic Spell
9th - Improved Familiar
11th - Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
13th - Quicken Spell *
13th - Spell Penetration
15th - Spell Perfection: Dominate Person or Hold Monster
17th - Greater Spell Penetration
19th - Improved Initiative *
19th - Persistent Spell
I'm probably still going to take Snake Fang - I can envision a number of uses where it might be effective, but I'm keeping an open mind. Laughing Touch not allowing a save is a pretty big deal.
I just love the utility of Realistic Likeness and it suits the character concept so well, I think I just have to take it from the start.
I went back and forth on Coaxing Spell because I really want to be able to affect as many creature types as possible, but I just don't see myself facing many Oozes or Vermin in the higher levels, and the earliest I could take it would be 13th.
I'm really clueless as to what Improved Familiar to take, though I think to be theme appropriate I should consider a fey or azata type - perhaps a Lyrakien or a Faerie Dragon?
My guilt over not addressing Spell Resistance is mitigated, in spades - +4 to the roll and I get to roll twice? Done and done.
I like your feat progression better than mine. I forgot realistic likeness, which seems super-awesome. I think you're pretty well-set, unless you need commentary on a spell list.
I'd go with Faerie Dragon. They have sorc casting levels, so they can use all sorc wands, and they have better UMD than the Lyrakien.
-Cross
Thanks - I really appreciate the help. It looks like we're on the same page.
You know, this just might be the first truly viable Cross-blooded sorcerer I've ever seen.
I like your feat progression better than mine. I forgot realistic likeness, which seems super-awesome. I think you're pretty well-set, unless you need commentary on a spell list.
I'd go with Faerie Dragon. They have sorc casting levels, so they can use all sorc wands, and they have better UMD than the Lyrakien.
-Cross
I think I'm pretty set on my spell list, though if you can think of any 'must-haves' that might not normally be considered, I'd be happy to hear them.
Rounding out the character, it'll probably look like this:
Attributes: (20 point buy)
STR - 10 (-2 racial mod)
DEX - 12 (+2 racial mod)
CON - 14
INT - 12
WIS - 8
CHA - 17 (+2 racial mod, +1 @ 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th & 20th)
Traits:
Reactionary
Keeper of the Veil
Skills:
Disguise (ranks @ 1)
Knowledge: Religion (ranks @ 2-7)
Use Magic Device (ranks @ 8-20)
Stealth (ranks @ 1-20)
Spellcraft (ranks @ 1-15)
Fly (ranks @ 16-20)
Could I Heavily Recommend that you check out Lore Seeker (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/advancedNewRules.html) for the +1 to DC on 3 spells of your choice?Your point buy looks fine, except you should absolutely put a point in bluff at level 1, over the point in Stealth, probably. Definitely need bluff in there. =)
-Cross (I guess the list of spells you use with this character is PRETTY CLEAR!)
Lore Seeker looks pretty darned solid, but I'm not sure which Trait should get the boot for it.
Why the point in Bluff? It seems a little redundant with everything else - Realistic Likeness cues off of Disguise, you can use Bluff untrained and I'll only have the Viper familiar from 3rd til 8th...
You may want to end up switching Con and Int, if you can't get all the skills you'd like. The HP and 1 fort save isn't the end of the world, but another 20 skill points might be awesome.
-Cross (Kudos on figuring out how many damn types of things you can affect with mind-affecting spells these days!)
Went back and forth with that - a touch more survivability seemed prudent and, as you pointed out, my Snake Fang needs as much oomph as I can give it.
This character really wasn't built to be skill heavy anyway. I don't feel as if I'm missing anything I absolutely need.
In the end, your current setup is probably pretty fine. Your DCs are going to be freaking monstrous with that charisma, Kitsune bonus, the two early spell focuses, and the favored class bonus. At level 4, you're going to have something like:
+5 (stat) + 1 (kitsune) +1 (favored class) + 1 (spell focus) = DC 19 for your level 1 spells.
Which is pretty unbeatable. And it's going to scale really well from there. So it might be that you don't need the extra dc from lore-seeker.
-Cross
Actually at 4th level, my 1st level Charm spells will have a DC 19, my 1st level Compulsion spells would be DC 21.
The impression I get on Initiative is that its go big or don't worry about it. Silent Spell and Quicken Spell come at the ideal times, so I'll keep things as they are.
I was actually considering using those bonus DC's from Lore Seeker on non-Enchantment type spells, like Silent Image or Vampiric Touch, or perhaps Disentegrate just to give me an option against things like Constructs and Elementals.
I was actually considering using those bonus DC's from Lore Seeker on non-Enchantment type spells, like Silent Image or Vampiric Touch, or perhaps Disentegrate just to give me an option against things like Constructs and Elementals.
Well, you could always grab Apparent Master and then Control Construct when it becomes available, especially since you're taking Spellcraft for your Perfection feat. That scratches another threat off the list.
You might want to consider taking Still Spell instead of Persistent Spell at 19th - not many things are going to be able to top your DC's, but you never know when you might be bound or restrained. Just a thought.
Persistent Spell really is the nuclear option though, and it might be the key to Hold spells working indefinitely against creatures with high Will saves.
Personally, I would recommend that you just buy metamagic rods for Threnodic and Coaxing spell instead of spending three feats to get them (including spell focus: necromancy). Just store the rods in spring loaded wrist sheathes so you can use a swift action to draw them and then still have a full round action to use the metamagic.
This way, you can pick up both silent spell and still spell for when you have to secretly charm or dominate people in social situations. You can't really use a metamagic rod for those anyway.
Personally, I would recommend that you just buy metamagic rods for Threnodic and Coaxing spell instead of spending three feats to get them (including spell focus: necromancy). Just store the rods in spring loaded wrist sheathes so you can use a swift action to draw them and then still have a full round action to use the metamagic.
This way, you can pick up both silent spell and still spell for when you have to secretly charm or dominate people in social situations. You can't really use a metamagic rod for those anyway.
I don't build characters pre-supplied with magical gear. For me personally, its never about what my character can buy, its about what my character can do, and we play in a relatively low-magic environment anyway. In years of playing I've never so much as seen a meta-magic rod in our games and doubt I ever will.
I've been toying around with a character concept, trying to see if I could come up with an effective Crossbreed Sorcerer that wasn't a dip for Evocation cheese, and its actually worked out to a really cool character concept. The idea is a sort of unseelie Fey who's natural appearance is a twisted combination of Fox and Serpent (though that's almost never seen) who is manipulative and controlling beyond anything you've ever seen.....
Wheel of Time fan I see lol.
I've been toying around with a character concept, trying to see if I could come up with an effective Crossbreed Sorcerer that wasn't a dip for Evocation cheese, and its actually worked out to a really cool character concept. The idea is a sort of unseelie Fey who's natural appearance is a twisted combination of Fox and Serpent (though that's almost never seen) who is manipulative and controlling beyond anything you've ever seen.....Wheel of Time fan I see lol.
LOL - big time. That's where I got the idea for the title of the thread, but not at all where I got the idea for the character. Still, you gotta love the synergy there.
I played with a kitsune that did this kind of stuff in PFS over the weekend save dcs of upwards of 23 at level 2... yeah hypnotize ALL THE THINGS. also a big fan of the Wheel of Time, and recently rereading it... again... thats what drew me here
I don't build characters pre-supplied with magical gear. For me personally, its never about what my character can buy, its about what my character can do, and we play in a relatively low-magic environment anyway. In years of playing I've never so much as seen a meta-magic rod in our games and doubt I ever will.
Perhaps a Craft Rod feat would make sense then? That way you're making the items instead of buying them or finding them.
I'm just suggesting it because metamagic feats are painfully expensive to use. When you first get the Threnodic Spell feat you'll only be able to use it on 1st level spells, and you're never going to be able to use Dominate Monster on an undead or vermin without a metamagic rod.
I don't build characters pre-supplied with magical gear. For me personally, its never about what my character can buy, its about what my character can do, and we play in a relatively low-magic environment anyway. In years of playing I've never so much as seen a meta-magic rod in our games and doubt I ever will.Perhaps a Craft Rod feat would make sense then? That way you're making the items instead of buying them or finding them.
I'm just suggesting it because metamagic feats are painfully expensive to use. When you first get the Threnodic Spell feat you'll only be able to use it on 1st level spells, and you're never going to be able to use Dominate Monster on an undead or vermin without a metamagic rod.
No, the purpose of playing in a lower magic campaign kind of gets nullified when you can just manufacture your own whenever you want. In my opinion metamagic feats should be painfully expensive to use. Even without them you're already often the most powerful member of the group, so its not as if I'm at some sort of disadvantage.
And for what its worth, if holding undead isn't good enough - which it usually is - there's always the spell Control Undead, no?