So I've been DMing my first game for about 6 months now, and one of my players (a rogue) just got a sap so he can knock people out. So,
1) Where is 'knocking people out' in the core rulebook?
2) How should I think differently about the rulebook to find other things in the future?
3) I heard something about killing people if you deal half their health in one hit, but I wasn't sure if that was Pathfinder or D&D, and I couldn't find anything about it.
Any advice would be helpful.
People fall unconscious if you deal nonlethal damage equal to their maximum hitpoints. Saps deal nonlethal.
d20pfsrd, Archives of Nethys, and the forums help a lot.
That's massive damage. Optional, and it's "50 damage or half, whichever is more, then make a Fort save vs. death."
So I've been DMing my first game for about 6 months now, and one of my players (a rogue) just got a sap so he can knock people out. So,
1) Where is 'knocking people out' in the core rulebook?
Saps deal nonlethal damage.
Lethal kills. Nonlethal is added separately.If Current health below nonlethal, you are unconscious (aka knocked out) till healed above nonlethal.
3) I heard something about killing people if you deal half their health in one hit, but I wasn't sure if that was Pathfinder or D&D, and I couldn't find anything about it.Any advice would be helpful.
Houserule.
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A good combo, albeit resource heavy, for dealing a LOT of nonlethal damage for a rogue is
Benefit: A rogue with this talent gains a +4 circumstance bonus on all Sleight of Hand checks made to conceal a weapon. Furthermore, if she makes a sneak attack during the surprise round using a concealed weapon that her opponent didn’t know about, she does not have to roll sneak attack damage, and the sneak attack deals maximum damage. A rogue can only use the underhanded talent a number of times per day equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 0).
You know just where to hit to knock the sense out of your foe.
Prerequisite: Sneak attack +1d6.
Benefit: Whenever you use a bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal sneak attack damage, you gain a bonus on your damage roll equal to twice the number of sneak attack damage dice you rolled.
You knock the sense out of foes with a well-timed surprise attack.
Prerequisite: Sneak attack +3d6, Sap Adept.
Benefit: Whenever you use a bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal sneak attack damage to a flat-footed opponent, roll your sneak attack dice twice, totaling the results as your nonlethal sneak attack damage for that attack.
So lets say at level 7 with 4d6 sneak attack
In one attack you deal your normal damage + 64...dex rogue with an agile sap can get an easy 1d4+5 so average 7 + 64= 71
Now I can't remember for sure but I also believe there was a feat or something that let you simply try to knockout someone but if memory serves it was a fort DC and a low one at that
Part of the issue I've seen is that players running rogues are outpaced by the hit die of their opponents, meaning that as level up, an enemy's hit points outrun the rogue's ability to do damage. A lot of players I know hate saps because they can never deal enough non-lethal damage to knock someone out. It makes sense that knocking out an opponent with a weapon designed for knocking people out shouldn't rely upon attrition of hit points, nor should it require all of your feats and a couple of levels to do so, but it does. It's a simple fact that a common thug can knock someone out with a sap without much training or skill. Maybe I'm wrong, but it just seems like saps are nerfed.
Thanks everyone for the replies, this helps a lot.
@Iron_Stormhammer Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Oh well, there are lots of other avenues of approach for the rogue in my group, and he's only level 5 right now, so he's got time to plan.
Part of the issue I've seen is that players running rogues are outpaced by the hit die of their opponents, meaning that as level up, an enemy's hit points outrun the rogue's ability to do damage. A lot of players I know hate saps because they can never deal enough non-lethal damage to knock someone out. It makes sense that knocking out an opponent with a weapon designed for knocking people out shouldn't rely upon attrition of hit points, nor should it require all of your feats and a couple of levels to do so, but it does. It's a simple fact that a common thug can knock someone out with a sap without much training or skill. Maybe I'm wrong, but it just seems like saps are nerfed.
The issue isn't necessarily that the weapon or damage output is properly scaled, it's that the common thug is a level 1 warrior. The common citizen is a level 1 commoner. At these levels, the thug most likely is going to knock out the commoner in one blow; I mean, mechanically speaking, he automatically will as long as his Strength is at least 14, no matter what he rolls for damage.
When you're talking about mid-to-high level adventurers and their enemies, these are people FAR above and beyond the scope of anything you'll see happen in real life. At that point, comparisons and what we take for granted as common sense starts to break down.
A variant rule for "knock out blows" would be useful to remedy this solution for higher-level characters. I think there was something like that in the RIFTS RPG, by Palladium Books. But if you do that, you cheapen the rogue's Master Strike.
Non-lethal damage knocks you out when you do enough to equal current HP. Most people hate saps because they are purely nonlethal damage.
Side note:Throwing, Returning, Merciful, shocking burst sap. This sound familiar to you?
Keep yer' eyes on dat dere halfling.
He can be perdy shocking.
Part of the issue I've seen is that players running rogues are outpaced by the hit die of their opponents, meaning that as level up, an enemy's hit points outrun the rogue's ability to do damage. A lot of players I know hate saps because they can never deal enough non-lethal damage to knock someone out. It makes sense that knocking out an opponent with a weapon designed for knocking people out shouldn't rely upon attrition of hit points, nor should it require all of your feats and a couple of levels to do so, but it does. It's a simple fact that a common thug can knock someone out with a sap without much training or skill. Maybe I'm wrong, but it just seems like saps are nerfed.
if this is the case, then your players or their GM have failed to bring up the most important part of non-lethal damage knockouts: the enemy is knocked unconscious when their current hitpoints are lower than their current non-lethal damage. so if 1 sap-master rogue is fighting with a party of 1-3 other people and they are getting sneak attacks with a sap and the associated feats/talents they should be doing enough non-lethal damage in 1-3 rounds on an enemy to overlap the current hitpoints that enemy would have if their party members are also hitting that enemy.
heres an example: rogue + a group of 3 fighters against a baddy with 300 hp
fighters all take their attacks first while rogue sets up for sneak attack. - baddy is down to lets say 270hp
rogue attacks with sapmaster and all talents etc to maximize damage. he deals about 70 NL damage.
fighters attack again. - baddy is down to 240hp with 70 NL
rogue takes another 70 NL
fighters take another 30hp - baddy is at 210hp with 140 NL
rogue does another 70 NL - baddy is now at 210hp with 220 NL damage. he is now knocked out.
this fight took 4 rounds. without the non-lethal damage to knock out the baddy, it could have taken up to 10 rounds or more. this is a GREAT way to take out enemies WAY faster in large fights without taking too much time, or to take out one big badguy in half the time.
when you talk about the rogue damage not scaling as well, in most cases thats true, except for the sap master BECAUSE he can do massive non-lethal damage because of sneak attacks being maximized all the time.
the trick is that the rogue needs to remind his DM to track the non-lethal damage seperately from the lethal damage and make note of when the bad guy gets knocked out, cause its not when the non-lethal reaches their max HP, but when it reaches their current HP.
sap masters make a great team player and are even better when grouped with a paladin because the paladin really likes not having to kill the enemy.
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Non-lethal Damage can be pretty great. You can still kill people with non-lethal as they get to -Con. Having said that, a lot of creatures and characters are immune to non-lethal damage. You heal Non-lethal damage alongside (at the same time as) lethal damage with curatives.
As for rogue damage not scaling...What? No really...what the hell are you talking about? I'll concede that when you're fighting a crit/precision immune creature your rogue damage suffers but for everyone else...
Well, sneak attack happens when flanking.
Sneak Attack happens in any situation in which your opponent is flatfooted.
Sneak Attack happens in any situation in which your opponent loses their Dex bonus to AC...
Feats, abilities and clever positioning allow the rogue to force any or all of the above circumstances. So after a while your rogue is sneak attacking on every attack. How does that not scale well? Someone please explain that to me. I really want to know how 6 attacks at level 20 with +10d6 each (+10d8 for the knife master!) plus weapon enchants and other appropriate bonuses does not scale well.
Also, Underhanded is an underachiever. You will find that you rarely utilize that feat.
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There are a lot of wild claims here, let's look at some of them...
The reason rogues scale badly is because they have some of the worst to hit in the game.
Rogues have the second tier progression on BAB. It is pretty bold to claim "some of the worst". Especially considering that many primary tier BAB classes dip out into other classes and lose BAB further diminishing the gap. This argument is just grandstanding.
Flanking doesn't scale unless you and a teammate get a teamwork feat.
Flanking is not supposed to scale. It provides Sneak Attack bonus damage and it is a situation that the player can force onto the play field.
Lack of dex becomes less and less of an issue as game goes on, not more.
Lack of Dexterity is not the issue. Rogues can apply Sneak Attack to an opponent who is in a situation that causes you to lose your Dexterity Bonus to AC, regardless of whether or not you had a bonus to begin with. A rogue can Sneak Attack a grappled foe, for instance, or while under the effects of invisibility.
Most rogues fall into the trap of TWF where they have to split their gold between weapons further causing them to fall behind in bypassing DR and in damage.
:boggle:
Splitting the gold? Dude, pass some of what you're smoking over here.Because a Rogue (or any character with TWF) can wield two weapons they are better equipped for overcoming DR by having multiple ways to apply damage. Cold Iron, Mithril, Adamantine, etc... all enchanted up to also be Magic. Add in the Agile trait and now the gap is smaller as a rogue is adding Dexterity bonuses to hit and to damage. Also, a Rogue can apply sneak attack damage his scimitar or rapier is doing 1d6+1d6. That's the same base damage as a greatsword. Only, he's doing it with each hand...
They have no inherent class built bonuses to hit, unlike pretty much any other martial class.
Any other martial class? You mean Fighter and Gunslinger? They are the only two which get a blanket to hit bonus but only with certain weapons. Rangers get Favored Enemy which limits the usefulness to the types of opponents you face. Monks kind of get one in Flurry of Blows but that is only accessible through Monk weapons or Unarmed. Barbarians, Cavaliers and Paladins get none at all. (Okay, Barbarians do get Rage, but that's not an inherent to Hit bonus.
Not inherently a to hit problem, but most of their damage is noncrit based. So later when everyone is rocking 30% crit chance or so, 90% of the rogues damage will be unaffected by crits.
There is so much to say here... Let's take it a piece at a time.
1) A rogue's damage is not crit based, correct. It is Sneak Attack based. Sneak Attack can be applied in virtually every situation that a critical hit is possible. (Meaning, whenever the opponent is not immune to critical hits.)2) Few character are rocking 30% critical hit at any point. 30% is a threat range of 15-20. To achieve this you need to begin with a weapon who's threat range is 18-20. Effects which increase threat range do no stack so either you have improved critical or the Keen property or something similar. Either way that list of weapons is VERY short. Most of the do terrible base damage and only have a x2 multiplier.
To get any decent damage out of them most character stack up on damage bonuses. The better bonuses do not get multiplied. Furthermore, to take advantage of that 30% you must maximize your opportunities to roll against that percentage, which means Two-Weapon Fighting, Haste, etc... These builds rely on hitting many times and the total damage adding up, which is why they don't do so well against heavy damage resistant opponents. Kukri deals 1d4, Rapier and Scimitar deal 1d6. Without bonuses the Kukri cannot even penetrate DR5 and the Rapier and Scimitar can only just.
The rogue does not need to invest in critical hits at all. It's really kind of a waste because any investment in critical hits could be used to make them more accurate or to provide more opportunities to Sneak Attack. The bonus damage from Sneak Attack is far superior to critical hit. I'll take (Weapon+Dmg Bonus+xd6 every attack) over (1d6+dmg bonus*2 30% of the time) every hour of every day of the week.
Basically in terms of DPR to hit >> damage.
From what I can tell this claim is based on the idea that if you do not hit your target, you deal no damage. Which is a fair claim. Unfortunately you seem to think it scales down while levels increase, when in fact exactly the opposite happens. Higher stats, more feats to reduce penalties or maximize bonuses, and growing BAB lead to better to hit over the long run and not less. AC scales up for several levels, taking distinct jumps and plateaus while Attack Bonuses simply keep coming.
To put it differently, you don't see too many opponents with a 40+ armor class. When a rogue does run into those guys Use Magical Device and a wand of True Strike handle it well enough.
I actually saw a suggested
house rule for a rogue talent at one point that suggested they could trade out up to their total dice xd6 for +x to hit and damage. I went through and showed that such a rogue should always trade out every dice for to hit and damage and it would increase their end game DPR by about 50%
Total
UtterBollox
In order for +1 per die to exceed an average of +3.5 per die you must be in a situation where you would otherwise miss four times.
Avg Dmg
1 vs 3.5
2 vs 7
3 vs 10.5
4 vs 14
5 vs 17.5
6 vs 21
7 vs 24.5
8 vs 28
9 vs 31.5
10 vs 35
So I would really like to see how you got your math on that claim of end game DPR.
The issue isn't necessarily that the weapon or damage output is properly scaled, it's that the common thug is a level 1 warrior. The common citizen is a level 1 commoner. At these levels, the thug most likely is going to knock out the commoner in one blow; I mean, mechanically speaking, he automatically will as long as his Strength is at least 14, no matter what he rolls for damage.
When you're talking about mid-to-high level adventurers and their enemies, these are people FAR above and beyond the scope of anything you'll see happen in real life. At that point, comparisons and what we take for granted as common sense starts to break down.
A variant rule for "knock out blows" would be useful to remedy this solution for higher-level characters. I think there was something like that in the RIFTS RPG, by Palladium Books. But if you do that, you cheapen the rogue's Master Strike.
True. What I'm thinking of though is mid-level vs. mid-level and class vs. class. A 4th level rogue trying to knock out a 5th level fighter guard captain isn't going to fly if the fighter has higher than average hit points. And when we get to higher levels vs. higher levels, it still seems to work that way - comparatively speaking, a 1st level thug vs 1st level commoner, is almost the same as a 6th level rogue vs a 6th level character in terms of scale, as the two characters are both advanced, but theoretically evenly matched.
Part of the issue I've seen is that players running rogues are outpaced by the hit die of their opponents, meaning that as level up, an enemy's hit points outrun the rogue's ability to do damage. A lot of players I know hate saps because they can never deal enough non-lethal damage to knock someone out. It makes sense that knocking out an opponent with a weapon designed for knocking people out shouldn't rely upon attrition of hit points, nor should it require all of your feats and a couple of levels to do so, but it does. It's a simple fact that a common thug can knock someone out with a sap without much training or skill. Maybe I'm wrong, but it just seems like saps are nerfed.if this is the case, then your players or their GM have failed to bring up the most important part of non-lethal damage knockouts: the enemy is knocked unconscious when their current hitpoints are lower than their current non-lethal damage. so if 1 sap-master rogue is fighting with a party of 1-3 other people and they are getting sneak attacks with a sap and the associated feats/talents they should be doing enough non-lethal damage in 1-3 rounds on an enemy to overlap the current hitpoints that enemy would have if their party members are also hitting that enemy.
heres an example: rogue + a group of 3 fighters against a baddy with 300 hp
fighters all take their attacks first while rogue sets up for sneak attack. - baddy is down to lets say 270hp
rogue attacks with sapmaster and all talents etc to maximize damage. he deals about 70 NL damage.
fighters attack again. - baddy is down to 240hp with 70 NL
rogue takes another 70 NL
fighters take another 30hp - baddy is at 210hp with 140 NL
rogue does another 70 NL - baddy is now at 210hp with 220 NL damage. he is now knocked out.
this fight took 4 rounds. without the non-lethal damage to knock out the baddy, it could have taken up to 10 rounds or more. this is a GREAT way to take out enemies WAY faster in large fights without...
True. Most players and DMs I've known failed to recognize the differences between lethal and non-lethal damage in this respect. However, your example is a larger combat situation where the party is whittling down a foe and the example assumes everyone is hitting each round and the enemy doesn't have any defenses to mitigate the damage such as DR etc. you are also assuming the rogue has invested everything (feats and talents) on making max damage and sap attacks. Most people want their rogue a little more well-rounded though - at least from what I've seen and may opt for things that help in other areas.
What I'm referring to is a rogue getting the drop on someone at full health, unaware. If a rogue is 6th level and has 3d6 sneak attack, sap adept and sap master, they can do a max of 45 damage without any strength bonuses etc. (1d6+3+3d6+3d6). If they sneak up on a 4th level warrior and they don't do max damage, lets say they roll a 4 and get 12 damage on each sneak attack roll for sap master, they get 31 damage. If the warrior has any con bonus, chances are that's not enough to knock them out. It makes the sneak past your enemy without causing a ruckus difficult to impossible. Maybe I'm missing something here, but I'm going to give this another look. I could be wrong. I am also not 100% sure if Sap Adept doubles the bonus based on the extra sneak attack dice rolled for Sap Master.
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@TruthRevolution
As for knocking people out with a rogue, you may also want to look into this talent: Knock Out Blow
A few good points with a lot of chest pounding.
@Thomas Long 175 I see somebody's grumpy today. I'll concede I wrote my post half cocked. Casters are not Martial classes, I guess you included a few of them because you just wanted to? I also would not include spells as inherent bonuses since they can be dispelled, you have to have them available, and you can fail to apply them. So, not inherent. Weapon enchantment properties are also not inherent for pretty obvious reasons. I did not comment on the Magus, that's a good catch.
Blessings upon you my child
With a single +1 over your listed +34 attack bonus Classic Sneak Attack pulls ahead (though just barely.)
.7+.7+.7+.45+.45+.2+.2 = 3.4
55.5 * 3.4 = 188.7
vs
.95+.95+.95+.95+.95+.7+.7 = 6.15
30.5 * 6.15 = 187.575
So, a Wand of Bless used with UMD, or Winged Boots and attacking from higher ground, or...or...or... and that's just +1.
At +2 it goes to 208.125 vs 190.625. You can see where it's going at this point.
Some Shenanigans!
Now let's say the Rogue knows how to work a full attack action and feats to really get some juju going...We'll need 3 +1 Agile Daggers of Returning, only 9k ea, using these feats: Reckless Aim, Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus and Close Quarters throwing. We're only down -1 from the +5 melee weapon listed.
First Attack is a Thrown Weapon
Second is Melee Opening Volley
Third is a Thrown Weapon
Fourth is Melee Opening Volley
Fifth is a thrown Weapon
Sixth is Melee Opening Volley
Final is Melee standard
60%/77%/60%/52%/35%/22%/15% is our new stack for odds to hit. These had to be calculated taking into account that the +4 from Opening Volley only happens if the previous thrown attack hits, otherwise it is basic odds on the swing. For instance: 60% for an 85% success rate and 40% for a 65% success rate or (85*.6)+(65*.4) = 77% overall, an improvement on your odds of hitting.
Using the average damage established by you earlier for melee weapons
55.5 and the daggers (1d4+10d6+14) 51.5
With just shenanigans we get to 171.955. A lot of work for a little boost? Let's use that Wand of Bless again and see what happens... 193.8325 The trend continues from there.
Piranha Why?
Hmm, Piranha Strike adds some good penalties, maybe your variant comes out ahead there, however we'll have to fix your math. Piranha Strike only adjusts per 4 points of BAB. Without a dip into a class with full BAB progression we cap out at -3/+6. Also the offhand bonus is halved, making the math irksome.
Re-Crunched old numbers
House Ruled Sneak Attack becomes 1d6+33/1d6+30 avg 36.5/33.5
Classic Sneak Attack becomes 1d6+10d6+23/1d6+10d6+20 avg 61.5/58.5
41/41/41/36/36/31/31 @ 36.5/36.5/33.5/36.5/33.5/36.5/33.5
.95 + .95 + .95 + .75 + .75 + .5 + .5
vs
31/31/31/26/26/21/21 @ 61.5/61.5/58.5/61.5/58.5/61.5/58.5
.5 + .5 + .5 + .25 + .25 + .05 + .05
HRSA: 188.675
CSA: 126.854
Now we have our baseline re-established. The difference is pretty stark. House Ruled Sneak Attack has a significant advantage from the accuracy. In fact it isn't until another +5 Attack Bonus gets mixed into the equation before Classic Sneak Attack pulls ahead at 226.125 over 220.175.
Did someone ask about Opening Volley Shenanigans? Well, to keep things fairly level we'll adjust for Deadly Aim on the throwing attack, maintaining similar penalties for all attacks. Also we'll be making dagger tosses with that pesky offhand to eliminate the half damage penalty. Since we're using a Dagger(1d4) it's not really a damage lift on the dice (only 57.5 avg) but it is from the accuracy.
.45/.59/.45/.34/.20/.08/.05 = 128.44
A boost but still not a strong performer with the penalties. It pulls ahead at +5 as well.
Dead Snake...er...I meant Deadly Sneaks
This is one kind of arbitrary in my opinion. When rolling gobs of dice an ability like this helps to level out performance. Since we're comparing statistical performance across the board your net gain is .5 damage per dice for -2 attack penalty.
Sure, I liked the talent in concept, but it's not actually very good unless you play with dice weighted to suck. Dropping 77d6 on the board is going to average out fairly consistently already.
Grapple Caveats
You are correct, basic Grappled condition does not remove Dex bonus to AC. Pin, a condition you can apply by grappling, does. Sorry I was not more specific at the time.
So, I have to say I was glad I did this exercise. While I completely dismissed Thomas Long 175's claim about his house rule in the beginning in turns out there was some real merit to it. When you consider that a Wand of Bless is all that is required to start exceeding his house ruled sneak attack damage average I find it a little absurd to make such a spectacle. Factor in also that a further +2 can be had from the Ninjitsu Headband and you're looking at a situation which begins to leave his house rule far behind even before combining UMD with other buffs from equipment designed for different classes or available spells form your allies. It was a much closer contest than I had assumed before actually doing the math, and I appreciated the opportunity to see how it worked.
Edit: Moved thread relevant comment to the top for visibility.
...rather idiotic stuff showing he has absolutely no ideas about the math behind the system1) Martials getting bonuses to hit
[list]
** spoiler omitted **...
You know, you can have a differing opinion all you want, but keep your name-calling s&*% to yourself off the internet. It doesn't help get your point across any better, and you just make people disregard your comments off the cuff.
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Not getting involved in the war, just wanted to say you all have the weirdest ways of describing the effects of nonlethal damage ever.
Lethal Damage + Nonlethal Damage > Target total HP = target unconscious.
simple.
I don't know where you're getting that whole, "you can knock them out in half the time" thing, because you definitely cant.
I guess if your rogue is dealing 70 damage a round and 3 fighters working together are only dealing 30 per round between them.... maybe thats what you meant... totally unrealistic though.
basically just always treat nonlethal damage as lethal damage because its practically the same thing. When enemy gets to less than 0 hp, they are unconscious and stable rather than dying.