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My personal GMing philosophy limits NPCs to 5th level, except for some exceptionally rare extraordinary individuals (like the PCs). However, my philosophy is not the point of this thread.
What I'm hoping to get from you all is a list of ideas for scenarios and circumstances that would make a 4th level rogue crime boss or a 5th level evil wizard a challenge for a 10th level party, for example. I need reasons why the party can't just march in and mow down the boss without breaking a sweat. I'm talking about things like deep mystery plots, huge organizations, impenetrable fortresses, hostages, leverage over the party. Stuff like that. Go nuts. Your creativity and time are greatly appreciated!
Dot for interest.
I admire your philosophy I am not sure it translates to the game well but I like the idea. I will hazard a few suggestions.
Well the key is going to be environment. Midlevel thieves guild high level traps for defenses.
Machines big hard to move and deadly.
Watch Luc Besson's "Messenger" its a Joan of Arc movie but it has some awesome siege warfare weapons featured. The key is mechanical force hitting the enemy while denying them a target. Like the ewoks using the swinging logs against the ATST. Messenger featured a device that launched bolts through tubes in a large door, imagine 50 or so crossbow bolts in an enclosed space.
The classics of this are vast amounts of boiling oil poured through the ceiling. Rocks dropped through the ceiling. I believe the now immortalized "Tuckers Kobolds" were standard kobolds who harassed a 7th level party. They used spied tower shields with heavy iron cylinders for wheels. To make it more fun they coated the shields with pitch and lit them on fire. The real world city of Petra was an underground complex. At choke points the rolled huge stone doors to seal off tunnels and wielded spears through niches in the walls or door.
Here is the word of caution. Remember that strategies used against PCs become strategies they employ themselves.
Remember that not every encounter is about killing the other party. Your NPCs could be simply testing the PCs abilities, gauging their reactions, testing their teamwork, etc. even leading them down the garden path to implicate them in something that gets them in major trouble with the authorities.
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Make the 5th level Wizard a Pit Fiend.
While I really don't want to detract from the point of the thread, there is a blog article that articulates what I'm going for really well HERE. It had an influence on my game philosophy.
OK Brother. I read (re-read actually) the blog and I've got the answer to your original question:
You can't. You are never, no matter how many contortions you make, going to be able to consistently challenge Superheroes with mortals. That was the point of the Blog. 10th level characters are literally Supermen compared to a crimeboss (who would be level 3 by the blogger's formula). You might be able to finagle a Lex Luthor character, but only if the players are constrained by Superman's "Paladin-esque" code of honor. Most D&D players will just slaughter his employees, kill him, set fire to his building, and pee in the ashes.
That was the point of the Blog: Your characters are past mortal threats now. They are Superheroes. They can only be challenged by Supervillains, Super-Monsters, and Demigods. You have to accept that. It's a different kind of campaign now. Sure, you can have the crime boss hire the Super-Bad Guys, if you like. There are plenty of examples of low-level (but rich or connected) types commanding the allegiances of far higher level minions. It's the minions that will be the challenge. Your guys could wipe out the Kings guard and feed him his own scepter. By the blogger, the kings guard aren't more than 3rd level. But then all the OTHER Superheroes are going to come for them, aren't they?
Twist your thinking. Superman doesn't punch the crime boss. Superman punches the crime boss's robot (golem). Then he just picks the crime boss up by the scruff of the neck and flies him to jail. That's where a 10th level party is in the blogger's world.
Personally, I don't like the blogger's assumptions. I don't assume that every "normal" is a one trick pony; super-optimized for one (and only one) task. Bill Gates can build companies AND ski. He might even take martial arts. For all I know he might even be able to walk and chew gum without hurting himself.
Even Olympic athletes have hobbies.
That let's my NPCs be a little higher level than the Blogger's assumptions. Higher level craftsmen don't just keep getting better at doing one thing, they learn how to do more things well. "I just made a masterwork shortsword!" "Great! Make me a masterwork katana." "Huh?"
What do I need a 7th level Blacksmith for? How about a masterwork cold iron wakasashi? You know how tough it is to make something like that out of cold iron? And he's married, so he has skill in diplomacy too. And he's a father, so he needs intimidate and bluff. He's also a Master in his guild, so Knowledge (Local), (Politics), etc.
In my world, an apprentice would be level 1. A Journeyman would be level 3. A master would be level 5. A Grandmaster could be as high as level 10 - though many of those levels might be in classes that expand his knowledge rather than his skill with his hands.
OK. I'm preaching off topic. Sorry. I just want you to know that, while I think my previous advice is sound, it comes from an opinionated place.
Thanks for you feedback, Capt_Phoenix. It seemed well thought out. I can see value in maybe stretching the level cap a bit to accommodate something like a grand master craftsman. The problem with stretching the level cap is that it brings on the ridiculousness of too many hit points, although I could always just intentionally keep hp low. It's a valid thought.
As for the encounters, you actually reiterated my point quite nicely. The entire point of my thread is that I know that low-level NPCs are nothing to PCs. They're fodder, chumps, batting practice. That's why I need circumstances and scenarios that make them more challenging, like the crime boss' robot from your own example. I could think up 100 things (mazes, bodyguard robots, bound demons, etc.) but I want ideas of things I haven't thought of. Don't get me wrong, my games are full of monsters that are more on the power level of the PCs. It's just the people that are limited. Anyway, thanks for your input. I really did take the time to consider your POV.
I'd still love more ideas. Anyone else?
I'd still love more ideas. Anyone else?
Well, if they can't match skill or power level wise, the options are:
A; environmental effects or tactics place them in positions where it is difficult for the pcs to execute the full leverage of their power level or someplace that acts as a force multiplier for the lesser npcs ... Tucker's kobolds come to mind. The pcs are scrunched, denied easy access to targets, sniped at, traps are used, etcetera. You could have
B: items - the npcs are equipped with items that help bridge the gap - unless you want too much treasure to boost the pcs ll above wealth by level, have to be careful here. However, you can make the items consumables; potions, wands with limited charges, et al. Items the PFs would not want to use; an evil artifact against a party including a paladin and a cleric of a good, good god .... Or you can just reduce the load of treasure that the big bad doesn't actually use in combat and distribute it among the minions, so e WBL remains e same, but the minions are boosted ...
C: numerical advantage: Swamp 'em.
Thanks for you feedback, Capt_Phoenix. It seemed well thought out. I can see value in maybe stretching the level cap a bit to accommodate something like a grand master craftsman. The problem with stretching the level cap is that it brings on the ridiculousness of too many hit points, although I could always just intentionally keep hp low. It's a valid thought.
As for the encounters, you actually reiterated my point quite nicely. The entire point of my thread is that I know that low-level NPCs are nothing to PCs. They're fodder, chumps, batting practice. That's why I need circumstances and scenarios that make them more challenging, like the crime boss' robot from your own example. I could think up 100 things (mazes, bodyguard robots, bound demons, etc.) but I want ideas of things I haven't thought of. Don't get me wrong, my games are full of monsters that are more on the power level of the PCs. It's just the people that are limited. Anyway, thanks for your input. I really did take the time to consider your POV.
Since pcs aren't going to be using the NPC classes, just house rule a reducing of one dice type or so for each of the NPC classes, for example, move the commoner from d6 to d4 and leave the rest the same. You still get the skills to make that room you want, but you reduce the hit points; I doubt the pcs will complain you are being unfair to them by reducing the hit point dice of NPC classes.
Since pcs aren't going to be using the NPC classes, just house rule a reducing of one dice type or so for each of the NPC classes, for example, move the commoner from d6 to d4 and leave the rest the same. You still get the skills to make that room you want, but you reduce the hit points; I doubt the pcs will complain you are being unfair to them by reducing the hit point dice of NPC classes.
That's a good idea. Nice and simple.
I feel I may be doing a poor job articulating what I'm hoping to get. When I say "scenarios that make the low-level NPCs more challenging," I mean the entire plot situation surrounding them, not necessarily the actual, face-to-face encounter. The combat is going to be a breeze, so how can I make it NOT a breeze to arrive at the encounter? That's more what I'm after. Sorry if that was unclear. But the ideas I've gotten so far have been helpful, so thanks!
Politics, polotics, politics. ...
....the bad guys are immune to prosecution due to being ambassadors from another country...touch them and you start a war...
....the bad guys have influence with all the support mechanisms the players enjoy, like the peasants and innkeeprs - pissed the, off and youre living rough firever...
....the bad guys live in a hot stinking swamp with no roads. Good luck trudging through that muck in platemail...
...the bad guys have the ability to have everyone arrested and/or executed....including every npc the players care about...
The bad guys are innumerable and instantly replaceable...the magic they're using to "clone" or otherwise replace themselves needs to be found and destroyed first...
...the bad guys are great diviners, they see all the pc's plans. Have to find a way to block that first.
The bad guys persuade everyone the pcs are the bad guys. So, are you gonna slaughter all those innocent policemen and peasants with pitchforks ?
How much access to low-level magic do you allow your low-level NPCs? If you had forty guys each with their own wand of magic missile or similar, and they used good tactics (surround the PCs from cover, all blast the cleric simultaneously), the PCs might get worried.
Hostage situations are interesting from a gameplay point of view. Two gangsters are holding daggers to the throat of children. They have readied actions to perform a coup de grace. What would work for the PCs?
I think if you are actually going to make those exceptions you should be playing an E6 game. 10th level characters have access to resources that can make it really hard to make this work without simply saying no every time the pcs try to do something. I've read the blog too, and the point of the article is not to make everyone in your world less the 6th level. The point is that if you exceed that you are exceeding human ability. The players are super heroes at 10th level. They need supervillains to challenge them. An episode of justice league isnt very interesting if the villain of the piece is 5 normal bank robbers. You need some fairly high level opponents to take the pcs on.
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I really think that if the style of gameplay that you want is to keep lower powered villains, then pathfinder isn't the best game for you. In a game like GURPS a 25 point "Normal" can be a threat to a 100 point hero. Being a skill based level-less game also allows you to have an expert artisan without also being a combat monster by simple result of hit dice and bab bonuses for class levels.