Now a caster is different than a druid.
We have shown that a druid can do the job. That does not mean clerics or oracles can do the job.
Now I would be interested to see the numbers of a druid with 16 strength that puts level points into their 16 wis. It's unrelated to the discussion, but I would still like to see that. (Personally, I love the druid claas, the only downside is the paperwork.)
Take a human with Dual Talent racial trait, and you can have both the 18 str and 16 Wis.
Let's see other possible options for the melee role:
A 12th level Inquisitor with a +4 belt, 18 starting STR, and +1 greatsword, (so you can save gold for stuff like a +1 to hit Ioun Stone, or whatever,) would have:
+9 BAB
+1 Weapon focus
+3 enhancement (Greater MAgic Weapon)
+3 sacred (judgement, 4 full combats per day)
+7 str
-3 Power Attack
+2 Bane (12 rounds per day, or roughly 3-4 combats)
for +22/+17 to hit (not counting the ioun stone), and 6d6+27 damage, with no rounds spent buffing. Assuming he gets a flanking buddy (not so hard to get), he does +26/+21 to hit, and 7d6+27 damage, because of his Solo Tactics giving him extra bonus when flanking, and extra damage when flanking. That's 90 average damage per round, on par with a petless druid, and above the fighter. With a single spell like Divine Power, he goes to +29/+29/+24, for an average of 140+ damage per round. Double than the example fighter. Could add long duration buff spells like Heroism if you want to, to put his attack in +31/+31/+26. Like the druid or summoner or bard, he can do it on the move, because he can take a Teamwork feat that allow him to charge as immediate action when an ally charge (and then get his full round) He has buffing spells, healing and restorative spells, good skills, several big bonuses to intiative, crit confirmation, intimidate, track... And could have a pet too if he wants (through Animal Domain).
A Synth summoner is a pain in the ass to calculate, because there are a myriad options. But trust me, a guy with 5 attacks, 30+ STR, and the possibility to pounce, WILL do more damage than the fighter. Put him in the pouncing druid league, just easier to break if you want to. Also able to buff the party, cast spells, better skills than the fighter, and can use Summon monsters if needed.
Let's see a simple Bard. A 12th level dervish bard with +1 corrosive scimitar and +4 dex can do:
+9 BAB
+7 DEX
+6 Inspire Courage
+1 enhancement
+2 Heroism (cast for 4 hours each time with a lesser rod)
+3 Rain of blows
+1 Weapon focus
-3 from power attack
for a +26 to hit, and +26/+26/+21 attacks that do 1d6+22+1d6 damage (with 15+ crit chance), or an average of 78 damage, which can be done on the move. This is unbuffed. Greater Heroism can give him +4 to hit and damage for the whole adventuring day, putting him in the ~93 damage league. Again, more damage than the example fighter, again, able to do full damage on the move, and again, all that while being able to cast spells, buff the party, having a ton of skills and two good saves (and AC through the roof)
Convinced yet?
Both bard and inquisitor get a thumbs down for using so many rounds per day powers.
Especially the bard for depriving the group of a bard skillmonkey in favor of dervish.
You didn't calculate a Synth summoner.
Now a caster is different than a druid.
We have shown that a druid can do the job. That does not mean clerics or oracles can do the job.
Now I would be interested to see the numbers of a druid with 16 strength that puts level points into their 16 wis. It's unrelated to the discussion, but I would still like to see that. (Personally, I love the druid claas, the only downside is the paperwork.)
... what?
If a class with 9 caster levels isn't a caster, what is a caster?
Both bard and inquisitor get a thumbs down for using so many rounds per day powers.
The Inquisitor get 4 full combats of judgement (whatever the combat length is). How many combats per day does your GM ussually play in an average session? How many of those combats *need* you have +26 to hit?
The bard gets 26+CHA rounds of combat. Plus 6 for each extra feat. That's like ... the whole adventuring day.
Especially the bard for depriving the group of a bard skillmonkey in favor of dervish.
This last sentence is what make me think you aren't watching it with the proper light.
Let's say we have a party of, say, a Cleric, Wizard, archer Ranger. We need a 4th character, prefferabily a melee.
Let's say I make a dervish dance. I "deprive the group of bard skillmonkey"? Fine, then I'll make a fighter. Oh, wait... I'm depriving the group of a bard skillmonkey too!! Actually, I'm *completelly* depriving the group of a bard skillmonkey, while the dervish still give them a bard with 6+Int skills, and spells. The fighter gives them... nothing. This bard is not trying to fill the skillmonkey niche (which is already covered by some other player, a ranger in this example), it's trying to fill the melee char niche. Which he can do, at *least* as well as the fighter. AND he has utility, skillmonkey, and spellcasting *for free*, compared to filling that melee slot with a dull fighter.
You didn't calculate a Synth summoner.
Let's use a fast to-build example. Starting str 8, but fused, gain str 21, +6 for Ability Increase evolution (cost 12), +8 for large size (cost 4), +4 from belt, or str 39. Rake (2) and extra pair of limbs (2) and extra claws (1) and pounce (1), for a total of 6 attacks on charge, or 4 when not charging. Total 22 evolution (16+6 feats)
9 BAB
+14 STR
+2 AMoMF
-3 PAttack
+22 attack, which means +22/+22/+22/+22/+22/+22 for 2d6+22 when pouncing. Or 165 average damage in a pounce, including the charge bonus.
Both bard and inquisitor get a thumbs down for using so many rounds per day powers.The Inquisitor get 4 full combats of judgement (whatever the combat length is). How many combats per day does your GM ussually play in an average session? How many of those combats *need* you have +26 to hit?
The bard gets 26+CHA rounds of combat. Plus 6 for each extra feat. That's like ... the whole adventuring day.
Funny I thought the adventuring day was longer than 5 minutes.
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wait which thread am I in
the martial vs. caster one
the martials are terrible one
the caster disparity one
the why martial hate one
or the good one
lol j/k
there are no good ones
Funny I thought the adventuring day was longer than 5 minutes.Both bard and inquisitor get a thumbs down for using so many rounds per day powers.The Inquisitor get 4 full combats of judgement (whatever the combat length is). How many combats per day does your GM ussually play in an average session? How many of those combats *need* you have +26 to hit?
The bard gets 26+CHA rounds of combat. Plus 6 for each extra feat. That's like ... the whole adventuring day.
It is. But you don't have to spend performance rounds while moving from a place to another, search for traps, scout, heal, or loot corpses, just during combat. How many encounters per day does your GM play?
The oracle had significantly less unbuffed DPR.
7 combats per day is still far less than what a fighter can do.
wait which thread am I in
the martial vs. caster one
the martials are terrible one
the caster disparity one
the why martial hate one
or the good onelol j/k
there are no good ones
If you find a good thread let me know.
The oracle had significantly less unbuffed DPR.
7 combats per day is still far less than what a fighter can do.
In your homebrewed Arena campaign where players fight dozens of fights per day, maybe. In everybody's else campaigns, included the published AP, not really. The fighter can't do much more than 7 encounters per day, because there aren't enough encounters
And just to point out, he could add other metamagic feats to use lvl 5 and level 6 slots, making it 16 combats per day. HOW MANY ENCOUNTERS PER DAY DOES YOUR GM USE ON AVERAGE?
The oracle had significantly less unbuffed DPR.
7 combats per day is still far less than what a fighter can do.
In your homebrewed Arena campaign where players fight dozens of fights per day, maybe. In everybody's else campaigns, included the published AP, not really. The fighter can't do much more than 7 encounters per day, because there aren't enough encounters
And just to point out, he could add other metamagic feats to use lvl 5 and level 6 slots, making it 16 combats per day. HOW MANY ENCOUNTERS PER DAY DOES YOUR GM USE ON AVERAGE?
hell, finding a 2nd or 3rd encounter per session is difficult. unless it happens to be a noncombat encounter, which is still an encounter.
Wandering Monster Tables? Yay, these tables have many issues
the first of which, is that they cover so broad a level range, that a random percentile roll could spell the difference between an effortless victory and an impossibly difficult defeat
the second of which, is that they always tend to derail a party from the main plot, if sent to clear a kobold den, those random bugbears that showed up in the middle of the road could distract you into finding their lair and lead to eventually forgetting about the kobolds
the third of which, is that when they derail, they potentially lead to unexpected conclusions, like those bugbears they killed are in cahoots with the kobolds, which will make them wonder why there are no goblinoids in the kobold den. revealing that they were a random encounter
the fourth of which, is the need to come up with wandering monsters on the fly, which requires a lot of preplanning, fudging of numbers on the fly, or tedium because every random bugbear looks the damned same
the fifth of which, involves players doing what they can to bypass and sidestep the random encounters.
The oracle had significantly less unbuffed DPR.
7 combats per day is still far less than what a fighter can do.
In your homebrewed Arena campaign where players fight dozens of fights per day, maybe. In everybody's else campaigns, included the published AP, not really. The fighter can't do much more than 7 encounters per day, because there aren't enough encounters
And just to point out, he could add other metamagic feats to use lvl 5 and level 6 slots, making it 16 combats per day. HOW MANY ENCOUNTERS PER DAY DOES YOUR GM USE ON AVERAGE?
Limited is still limited. The oracle did not come close to the fighter. The druid did, but the oracle did not.
EDIT: Also we calling campaigns home-brew now? You best be explaining that sort of nonsensical labeling.
Limited is still limited. The oracle did not come close to the fighter. The druid did, but the oracle did not.
Limited is not limited if the limit is beyond what is needed. If you only fight 4-5 encounters per day (as is the game's assumption), then being able to self-buff SIXTEEN times per day, as that oracle does, is not really limited.
Sort of how Bill Gates budget for Pathfinder Roleplaying Game isn't limited. Yes, his fortune is not infinite, so it is limited. But he has enough to buy every single pathfinder book ten thousand times, so in practice, his limitation is pointless.
Also we calling campaigns home-brew now? You best be explaining that sort of nonsensical labeling
Your campaign is home-brewed, in contrast with Rise of Runelords, or Kingmaker, or Carrion Crown, which are official. That you could build a campaign that consist in 700 fights in a row in a straight corridor doesn't mean the game is assumed to be played like that. In a regular campaign, that sort of things don't happen, so it's not relevant for the discusion of when (in normal pathfinder) casters flip martials, and if martials are needed or not.
99.99999999999% of campaigns don't make the PC fight 17 tough combats in a rough without resting (because if the fights aren't tough, then bufffing is not needed) The oracle can self-buff as a swift action for 16 combats in a row (using 4th, 5th and 6th level spell slots. That means his ability is enough to surpass the fighter in 99.999999% of campaigns (all of them that are not either a Arena with a dozen combats per day, or a corridor with 700 encounters in a row.)
EDIT: Did the summoner come "close" to the fighter, like the druid did? By close I mean surpassing it in every single aspect of damage dealing while being more mobile, cast spells, have better skills, better saves, better defenses, supporting the party, adding resources, etc.
Limited is still limited. The oracle did not come close to the fighter. The druid did, but the oracle did not.Limited is not limited if the limit is beyond what is needed. If you only fight 4-5 encounters per day (as is the game's assumption), then being able to self-buff SIXTEEN times per day, as that oracle does, is not really limited.
Sort of how Bill Gates budget for Pathfinder Roleplaying Game isn't limited. Yes, his fortune is not infinite, so it is limited. But he has enough to buy every single pathfinder book ten thousand times, so in practice, his limitation is pointless.
Also we calling campaigns home-brew now? You best be explaining that sort of nonsensical labelingYour campaign is home-brewed, in contrast with Rise of Runelords, or Kingmaker, or Carrion Crown, which are official. That you could build a campaign that consist in 700 fights in a row in a straight corridor doesn't mean the game is assumed to be played like that. In a regular campaign, that sort of things don't happen, so it's not relevant for the discusion of when (in normal pathfinder) casters flip martials, and if martials are needed or not.
99.99999999999% of campaigns don't make the PC fight 17 tough combats in a rough without resting (because if the fights aren't tough, then bufffing is not needed) The oracle can self-buff as a swift action for 16 combats in a row (using 4th, 5th and 6th level spell slots. That means his ability is enough to surpass the fighter in 99.999999% of campaigns (all of them that are not either a Arena with a dozen combats per day, or a corridor with 700 encounters in a row.)
I think we're done. You just called the majority of games homebrew, insinuating that they are not valid.
Further conversation would be trying to find the arcane line that you have drawn where a DM changes things for his run from official to home-brew.
I'll pass on analyzing the depths of your prejudice.
I think we're done. You just called the majority of games homebrew, insinuating that they are not valid.Further conversation would be trying to find the arcane line that you have drawn where a DM changes things for his run from official to home-brew.
I'll pass on analyzing the depths of your prejudice.
That's a strawman. I did not say the majority of games are not valid. I did say that a campaign that consist in nothing more that twelve fights per day in an Arena is not valid to measure the combat durability of a class. (BTW, 12 combats per day still fall under the 16 combats per day where the oracle is better than the fighter). Most campaigns don't follow that system, and most people don't fight 17+ combats per day.
You still haven't answered the question I've made SEVERAL times. How many encounters per day does your GM use on average? Judging out the 16 combat per day buffed oracle because "it might be" a campaign "somewhere" in which the oracle "could" have to fight 17 fights in a row (and thus fighting ONE fight with SLIGHTLY below damage, or... just spend ONE round buffing) is absurd.
You were done a long time ago, M. You were just looking for an excuse.
:)
I can't pull a fast one on you can I?
Yeah I was more or less done after losing the druid comparison. Arguing about oracles is just semantics at this point.
Gotta admit, those fighters look solid. Nice work!
You were done a long time ago, M. You were just looking for an excuse.:)
I can't pull a fast one on you can I?
Yeah I was more or less done after losing the druid comparison. Arguing about oracles is just semantics at this point.
Woy, you actually admitted you were wrong about something, hold me I may faint. Of course you are still also wrong about both the Oracle and Sorcerer. Lets have a quick recap:
Your level 12 fighter attacking at 22/17/12 for 41.4 average damage per swing. Average level 12 AC is 27 meaning you are getting 80/55/30% of your damage for an expected damage of 68.3 per round.The Oracle was attacking at +20/15 for an average of 35.65 with a single quickened Divine Favour and therefore no loss of economy. That's an expected damage output of 41 damage so at this point you are well ahead. Of course add one buff round for quickened enlarge person and Divine Power and the numbers change somewhat.
Now we are attacking at +24/24/19 with an average damage of 3d6+26, or 36.5 average per hit but a better hit chance. Expected damage per round is now 90 so we are well ahead with a single buff round. We use one level 4 and 5 spell slot and we can do this in 8 encounters per day before we run out. Also being large and therefore having reach makes it much more likely an enemy will provoke an Opportunity Attack giving the Oracle and even greater advantage.
The sorcerer is using Empowered Scorching Ray out of level 3 spells slots for nearly 30 attacks every day, so easily between 7 and 10 combats. Each spell is averaging 94 damage per round and he brings the utility of a single classed primary spell caster. Round 3 still goes to the non martial.
What part of quicken Divine Favour and scorching ray doesn't seem limited to you? Thumbs down.
You showed what a druid can do, but now you are getting ahead of yourself.
When you can do it for 8-10 combats a day, even more as you level up, then it is going to cover the vast majority of peoples games. Go ahead, set up a poll on here asking people how many combats they have on average in a game day. I will happily wager that the vast majority don't do more than 4.What part of quicken Divine Favour and scorching ray doesn't seem limited to you? Thumbs down.
You showed what a druid can do, but now you are getting ahead of yourself.
Limited to X many slots a day prevents you from doing what martials are suppose to do. Atleast a barbar has rounds of rage. That way the 1 round encounter doesn't cost you the same amount of resources as the 10 round encounter.
OK, last of the fighters, this time the two handed Greatsword user. I went Oni spwawn tiefling for the Darvkvision and good stat mods. Alter Self also isn't bad as an optional extra self buff.
I took the two handed weapon wielder archetype to max out damage but it leaves him with no form of Pounce. Once he gets into melee however step up should help him stay there and he hits very hard. Defences are OK for hanging out in melee, 28AC and 14/9/13. HP are a little low but he cant afford to upgrade to a 4/4 Str/Con belt.
Attack routine is 27/22/17 for 2d6+33 (37 for hits two and three) damage per hit. Average is 44.5 per blow, with crits 0.2*89 + 0.75*44.5 = 51 per hit/ Against CR12 AC27 we are looking at an expected damage value of 112 per round. It is slightly lower due to not counting the extra strength on the first attack but I really cant be arsed to figure that out. I suspect it gets forgotten a lot as a fiddly minor effect.
That is actually very respectable. BUT the lack of any form of pounce means you wont be getting that damage every round, more probably every other round as you move between defeated opponents. You also still don't bring any extra utility and you are only slightly ahead of the casters on a single round comparison. As an outsider you also cant be affected by certain buff spells, Enlarge Person in particular which is a common low level method of significantly increasing two handed weapon wielder damage. On the plus side you also have a quite respectable ranged attack despite only having a Dex of 12.
** spoiler omitted **...
Oh my I should just let you argue yourself. Here I was using a human vanilla greatsword fighter build. When you apply the same level of opt to a fighter his full attack at lvl 12 is doing as much damage as meteor swarm.
Meteor Swarm is a terrible damage spell.
Amen. I houseruled it so that it does more damage, and the meteor impact leaves big pits in the ground that nearby people can then fall into.
What part of quicken Divine Favour and scorching ray doesn't seem limited to you? Thumbs down.
You showed what a druid can do, but now you are getting ahead of yourself.
So here's a question. Do you consider archer martials to fall under this same "thumbs down" as you claim casters do?
Because after all, arrows are a limited resource!!!
Or are you going to say: "the fact that it's technically limited doesn't matter much in practice, because they have enough of that resource that they don't need to worry about running out of it for any reasonable number of consecutive encounters"?
I don't even have to talk about the arrow limit. Archers fail filling the martial role more than anyone.
They don't get close.
They are completely shutdown by effects like windwall.
Archery is probably what the group skill monkey wants to be doing. The extra damage should help them keep up.
Meteor Swarm is a terrible damage spell.
Still you just made a fighter that does more at 12 than a 9th level spell.
Still the best damage spell in the game before meta-magic.
No need to bring along any fighters, they just get in the way of real actual characters.
God help your party if you fight too many creatures that aren't standing next to each other.
I love how your fighter and super damage wizard do the same damage per round. Sure your wizard has AOE but he is also limited by slots. The fighter is not.
Considering a fighter with boots of speed has haste and can charge 120ft per turn. I think we are good.
Your wiz build has many slots per attack. This is even worse than your oracle who had so many slots per combat.
Additionally your fireball is useless once those outsider with teleport are near the party. Unless you feel like killing everyone, the fighter has more precision than your fireball.
Now to counter that you have to prepare some single target spells too.
Slowly you eat up all your slots and turn into something that resembles an archer build. Yay!
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Man, Marthkus just wears you down with his combination of being wrong and persistent. But you've been a trooper for hanging around as long as you have. Personally I don't know how to respond to a statement like "34 spell slots IS LIMITED SPELL SLOTS" beyond just shaking my head and moving on.
Man, Marthkus just wears you down with his combination of being wrong and persistent. But you've been a trooper for hanging around as long as you have. Personally I don't know how to respond to a statement like "34 spell slots IS LIMITED SPELL SLOTS" beyond just shaking my head and moving on.
The fighter has more than 34 attacks in one day.
Seriously, why do I continue to reply to your idiocy.
Because you know if you tell your party that you are playing a martial and bring a blaster wizard, they will be mighty confused as their party tank goes down before clearing the first few rooms of the first dungeon.
Man, Marthkus just wears you down with his combination of being wrong and persistent. But you've been a trooper for hanging around as long as you have. Personally I don't know how to respond to a statement like "34 spell slots IS LIMITED SPELL SLOTS" beyond just shaking my head and moving on.The fighter has more than 34 attacks in one day.
So? How many does it take to win a fight? I just don't understand why you don't understand that mid to high level characters have more resources then they can reasonably expend in one day.
I'm honestly convinced that you've never actually played a game with a mid to high level caster. Or heck, even a barbarian or other class with "limited" resources.
Does he need all 34+ attacks in one day? Mine don't.
Mine do. And I don't have to conserve them for combat. I don't need to waste a spell to kick down a door.