I've made a Master of Many Styles Sohei 2/Inquisitor 2/Lore Warden Fighter 2/Aldori Swordlord 4/Duelist 10. Specialized in Crane Style and Kirin Style.
It was... Interesting?
Brawlers to me are way better than unarmed fighters.
Magus that punches people is still cool, even if punches crit range sucks. Kensai is the thing if you wanna stick to unarmored.
I think that sorc into EK is deceptivly powerfull and now very much viable with the SLA workaround.
Alchemist and his melee variants also works wonder, mutagen rocks and alchemical allocation is great with high level potion cheese.
Syntesist, you can put them anywhere you want, they make everything better.
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What is confusing you is Character level vs Class level. A Monk 2/Fighter 1 is still character level 3 and qualifies for anything listed for level three on this table.
In general, a full BAB class profits most from such a dip. With a 3/4 BAB class you lose an extra point of BAB (or else need to take 4 levels of MOMS). In general, it is also better to take both MOMS and MOSM (Monk of the Sacred Mountain). If you're going to wear armor (and if you're not going one-handed with Dervish Dance, you probably are), free Toughness is just much better than Evasion.
Fighter is probably the best option, which loses to least and gains the most. Brawler Fighter, using Dragon Style and Crane Style or Tiger Style
or any Fighter using Tiger Style and Crane Style (I'd recommend using a one-handed weapon in two hands). Be sure to get Combat Style Master to start both styles in your first action.
If you're going one-handed, Crane Style is a good fit and since your sub-optimal choice will leave you feat starved, Crane Style might well be your only style. On the other hand, you too profit from tiger pounce. As an aside, a DEX focused Dervish Dance build profits greatly from two levels of Ranger to pick up Power Attack while bypassing the STR prereq. Piranha Strike sadly does not work for the scimitar.
MoMS 2/ 2h fighter archetype. Dragon style gives you 1.5 str to unarmed strike, and 2h fighter gives you x2 str with a 2h weapon. Take TWF and go to town...
Okay here's a concept I've roughed out, basically, the short version is it is focused on Intimidate, and passive bonuses to unarmed strikes.
Race : Human (anything works though - Oni-Spawn tiefling (REALLY good) Half-Orc, and Half - Elf all offer really good things for this build, anything that lets you add to STR to begin with is optimal)
Stats (20 pt buy)
Str 18 (16+2), Dex 12, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 8
AL : Lawful Neutral
1 Monk (MoMS) - Improved Unarmed Strike, Dragon Style, Improved Initiative, Tiger Style, Stunning Fist, (Wis to AC), fuse style (2 styles)
2 Monk - Tiger Pounce, evasion
3 Fighter (Brawler) - Weapon Focus (unarmed strike), Power Attack
4 Fighter - Dazzling Display, bravery, +1 CMB and CMD (bull rush, reposition, drag)
5 Fighter - Dragon Ferocity, close combatant (+1 to hit / +3 damage with close weapons)
6 Fighter - Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike)
7 Rogue (Thug) - Cornugon Smash, sneak attack +1d6
8 Rogue (Thug) - improved evasion, rogue talent (strong impression - Intimidating Prowess)
9 Inquisitor domain (Plant : subdomain, Growth (Enlarge person / self 3+wis mod per day), judgment, monster lore, stern gaze - Savage Display
10 Inquisitor - cunning initiative
11 Inquisitor - Performing Combatant, Outflank (Inquisitor teamwork feat)
12 Inquisitor
13 Monk - Monastic Legacy, fast movement +10 feet, maneuver training, still mind
14 Rogue (Thug) sneak attack + 2d6
15 Rogue (Thug) - Skill Focus (Intimidate)rogue talent (combat trick - Shatter Defenses)
16 Fighter
17 Fighter bravery +2 , Perfect Strike, Improved Grapple
18 Fighter
19 Fighter - Greater Grapple, Iron Will
20 Fighter
Inquisitor spells known
9th - 0 (detect magic, guidance, light, create water) 1 - expeditious retreat, shield of faith
10th - 0 (detect poison) 1- true strike
11th - 0 (resistance) 1 - cure light wounds
12th - 2nd - weapon of awe, cure moderate wounds
He hits like a truck even at low levels. If Dragon Ferocity works like I think it does, at level 6 this guy has a +11 passive damage bonus to unarmed strike (+4 str, +2 Dragon Ferocity, +2 Weapon Specialization, +3 Brawler archetype) That's before Power Attack even, whose penalty can be applied to AC. He's going to hit often too (+1 Brawler archetype, +5 BaB, +1 Weapon Focus)
You could skip the inquisitor levels for something else even. I just like all the little things four levels of inquisitor will bring (better saves, +2 to Intimidate, better initiative, monster lore, judgment 2/day). If you don't want to be intimidating, the Thug rogue can go. This build ends up at level 20 with a 17 BaB, and base saves of +14 Fort, +11 Ref, and +11 Will. That's pretty awesome. There's also a huge number of skills, for my build I'm maxing Perception and Intimidate, and taking Acrobatics for the first 5 levels to meet the prereq for Dragon Ferocity. Beyond that though you're likely to be good at a lot of things. At range you can just whip out a composite longbow. For crowd control you have the Thug ability which lets you trade shaken for frightened if your Intimidate check is high enough, and Dazzling Display can act like an AoE fear against a good number of things.
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i have to ask byrdology whats the point of that, its not like the STR modifier stacks as my unarmed strikes are not 2 handed weapons.
because unarmed strikes can be any part of your body, so you can twf with a two handed weapon build. I built a character who used that strategy once, he always mixed headbutts with great axe swings.
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Okay here's a concept I've roughed out, basically, the short version is it is focused on Intimidate, and passive bonuses to unarmed strikes.
** spoiler omitted **
He hits like a truck even at low levels. If Dragon Ferocity works like I think it does, at level...
Your build seems all over the place. The Rogue levels don't add much because you can already apply shaken via crits with dragon ferocity and sneak attack is unreliable. The inquisitor levels don't do much either with very limited spell casting and a minor judgement. Wisdom and Dex are too low to have a decent AC when unarmored from monk armor bonus, and your dex is too low to use Light Armor to benefit from Brawling armor.
Your build seems all over the place. The Rogue levels don't add much because you can already apply shaken via crits with dragon ferocity and sneak attack is unreliable. The inquisitor levels don't do much either with very limited spell casting and a minor judgement. Wisdom and Dex are too low to have a decent AC when unarmored from monk armor bonus, and your dex is too low to use Light Armor to benefit from Brawling armor.
Yeah I know it's sort of everywhere, it's just a rough concept. I also illegally took two styles at level 1. The rogue levels do add a lot for me though, because the Thug archetype lets me swap 4 rounds of shaken for a round of frightened. Useful CC, especially combined with Dazzling Display and Cornugon Smash. The other 3 levels are there, because, well, why not. 2nd level gets me a bonus feat, as does 4th, and 2d6 sneak attack is useful, especially once you get to Shatter Defenses. Inquisitor is really there because of the Growth domain getting me from 1d10 to 3d6 after Monastic Legacy, though an item could do that as well I suppose.. and cunning initiative. I might be overvaluing initiative for this character but, my current character has a +2 initiative and ALWAYS goes last, and it's frustrating...so yeah I might be going overboard. I hadn't thought a ton about itemization, that's true, beyond the obligatory amulet of mighty fists / natural armor. Brawling armor is nice, is there any way to add that to a monk's robe? If I were to rebuild around it I could drop WIS for DEX and slap on a suit of Brawling Studded Leather. That could definitely be awesome. How about this instead?
Str 18 (16+2), Dex 16, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 10 (8+2), Cha 8
Race : Tiefling (Oni-Spawn)
alternate racial traits : prehensile tail
AL LN
Traits : Reactionary, Hard Hitter
1 Monk (MoMS, MoSM)- Tiger Style, Power Attack, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist
2 Monk (MoMS, MoSM)- Tiger Pounce, Toughness
3 Fighter (Brawler)- Dragon Style, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike)
4 Fighter - Improved Initiative
5 Fighter - Dragon Ferocity
6 Fighter - Weapon Specialization (unarmed strike)
7 Rogue (Thug) - Cornugon Smash
8 Rogue - Intimidating Prowess
9 Monk - Dazzling Display
10 Fighter
11 Fighter - Hero's Display, Performing Combatant
12 Fighter
13 Fighter - Savage Display, Monastic Legacy
14 Fighter
15 Fighter - Dazing Assault, Shatter Defenses
16-20 Fighter, feats TBD
Might be a bit more streamlined, but less generally useful. This would definitely benefit from a suit of Brawler armor. I would want to find a way to hit Large size (without a super-dispellable Permanency effect that can be situationally awkward anyhow). He's your typical surly guy with an oni in his past, fleeing from something or another he doesn't want to talk about. He has his own strict code he follows and is loyal to those he befriends but a terror to those who cross him... and you definitely know when this guy is in the room, but good luck getting him to leave one.
thread is pretty much in the title.
I like MoMS but understand its not mechanically effective. however, dragon style is great for unarmed damage.
I know people say unarmed fighter but are there any other contenders and any reason?
Made a truly sick Goblin Brawler with a two-level dip in MOMS for Crane and Snake. Its like playing the Tasmanian Devil.
Seriously.
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i have to ask byrdology whats the point of that, its not like the STR modifier stacks as my unarmed strikes are not 2 handed weapons.
If you have to ask, then you are not ready, grasshopper. But when you get tired of trying to snatch pebbles out of your masters hand, then come see me... I will teach you how to take the pebble and the hand with it!
@w01fe01 : What would armor master or two weapon fighter bring? I'm curious. The good thing about the TWF route being so feat intensive is, well... you're gonna have a LOT of feats.
Everything I've read says that you can't take two styles at first level, because with MoMS, the bonus feats are the only ones you can use that let you ignore the prerequisites. So you take a style at first, and a feat path feat at 2nd (whatever you want that is hardest, like Tiger Pounce or Snake Fang), and you have to take your 2nd style honestly. That's one reason I like Dragon Style, because you can have it locked up by 6th level.
Also, sadly you can't combine Sohei and Sacred Mountain since they both replace slow fall with something. Since you're not going deeper than 2 levels your DM MIGHT let you munchkin out and do it but I as written it's not possible.
Gunslinger 5 (pistol gun training)/MoMS 2 (crane style+wing)/???/profit
I realize you said a two level dip, but...
Dervish of Dawn (or Dawnflower Dervish) Bard 2/ MoMS 1 (crane wing)
Feat and level progression progression is as follows:
1. Bard (Dodge, Dervish Dancer as bonus feat)
2. Bard
3. MoMS (IUS as bonus feat means you qualify for Crane Style as regular feat, then take Crane Wing as your MoMS bonus feat)
Dervish Dancer requires you to fight with one hand while not having a weapon or shield in the other, and Crane Wing lets you deflect one attack per round as long as you have a hand free. The Dervish Dance bonuses along with dexterity to hit and damage means your attack bonus should be high enough to eat the -2 from Crane Style without a hiccup.
Stack on some mirror images and displacement and it's surprisingly hard to land a hit on that bard, and he's hitting back hard.
Thanks! I like the build because you get the full benefit of the monk's saves,
I agree, I quite like the mental image of a warrior swinging a two-handed axe and sprinkling in a liberal dose of punches, knee strikes and headbutts as well - very visually appealing and it's very cool to see someone blend US and weapon attacks without wearing a kimono.
RAW you could TWF the scimitar and imp unarmed strikes with the bard build as well (you'll need weapon finesse and an AoMF with Agile though) since you are not technically carrying a weapon in your off hand, but I'm reasonably sure that goes against the intent of Dervish Dance.
I'm guessing he means because fighting defensively (a requirement for Crane Wing) requires either a standard attack or a full attack action. The magus primarily uses Spell Combat, which is a unique full round action that incorporates a full attack, not a full attack action.
It's the same reason why Magi that are affected by haste don't get an extra attack if they use Spell Combat.
It's a bit of a silly ruling really.
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i know it pushes spell progression until later but...crane wing expends no action so you could use it and cast just fine. or am i missing something.ya pretty sure it does too, but i think any combination where you want one hand free can be nice with crane style. if it didnt hurt spell progression id suggest it for a magus even.Crane Style won't work for a magus.
Crane Style requires fighting defensively
Which requires a full-attack action or attacking as a standard action.
Spell combat is neither.
Gunslinger 5 (pistol gun training)/MoMS 2 (crane style+wing)/???/profitThis is the closest you'll get to a Grammaton Cleric in pathfinder. Unfortunately, you can't dual-weild pistols and get the benefit of crane wing.
Who said anything about dual-weilding? Though if you want to go that route: Gunsliger 5/MoMS 2/Alchemist 2 (tentacle or extra arm)
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Who said anything about dual-weilding? Though if you want to go that route: Gunsliger 5/MoMS 2/Alchemist 2 (tentacle or extra arm)Gunslinger 5 (pistol gun training)/MoMS 2 (crane style+wing)/???/profitThis is the closest you'll get to a Grammaton Cleric in pathfinder. Unfortunately, you can't dual-weild pistols and get the benefit of crane wing.
No one, but if you haven't seen Equilibrium, Grammaton Clerics are all about dual-wielding pistols with Gun Kata.