So, here's a situation. A player loves the feel of the "Magical Tails" feats for Kitsune.
Playing into the whole "Mythical Enlightened Fox Spirit" idea, just a lot of feel and flavor.
The problem is, however, that it's painful to take the feats.
The cost (8/10 feats over 20 levels) is steep for, at best, Dominate Person 2/day. Not even Monster.
I can feel the player's pain... They're neat, but feats are usually to mechanically fine-tune your class.
So I ask this to other GMs:
Would you allow the player, as a Kitsune, to earn the feats as they level, through role playing and/or character development?
Considering the feats really don't add much power, beyond at best a magical item or two, I'm not sure I mind.
Would give the GM some interesting flavor control over their story too, and allow them to focus more on their party role.
So. Would you allow them to keep their feats, and earn Magical Tail up to 8 times via story?
If so, would you charge some unspoken tax, perhaps from their loot shares, as if to compensate for a magic item of some sort?
I'm inclined to say yes, but I'm interested in the opinion of others on this one.
The feats are neat, but they really seem like a painful investment.
Yes, I would. It's no different than the old idea of giving a PC a sword/other weapon that unlocks more abilities as they level up and perform certain acts. I'd also reduce WBL by the cost of an item with each spell twice per day at minimum caster level.
Well, LazarX, that would be one of a few circumstances where it would be really good.
But that's a very specific situation, and it's sad the feel of the feat would be held back by specifics.
By the time you get the abilities, opponents often have ways to deal with them.
What I'm proposing for the player is a behind-the-scenes "loot tax" - where they'd essentially forfeit about 10-to-20% of their income, until the feats were "paid off" as if crafting a rod or staff or some-such with a per-day use limit. They'd be "paying" for the item in full, just in a non-standard way. Sorta like how a Wizard "researches" his spells for leveling behind-the-scenes as part of the class. It's technically always happening, just not really talked about.
This would allow them to stay focused on what the party needs/wants more.
I think it would be a decent way to mitigate flavor and function without breaking anything.
Just explaining my personal thoughts on it.
I did post this looking to get pros and cons, and opinions, and I do appreciate both~
Arguably it's a good way to avoid the Christmas Tree. Give out feats instead of treasure. OTOH, it's a hard thing to balance, you're obviously giving an individual PC a reward rather than letting the players decide how to divide it, and the character sheet gets even more complex.
But if you can keep a handle on it, go ahead.
Honestly, as a player, I love this.
There are so many feats out there and some are really cool, even if they are not the most effective for your character.
For instance, if I played an Aasimar, I would like to take the Angelic Blood, Flesh, Wings, and Metallic Wings feats. But honestly, I am always feat starved and four feats is a steep price to pay.
I would gladly pay out an equivalent amount of loot for these feats as though I had purchased them as magic items (even with the 1.5X premium for being "slotless").
Sometimes you want your character to be cooler, not just the stuff he has.
I would be more likely to make a list of noncombat/weak/feats-nobody-ever-picks and let the PCs pick one of those on their even levels.
(I would also let a Kitsune character have as many non-magical tails as he desired, as that's simply flavor.)
i have used feats as rewards before, however i usually adjust wbl for it accordingly.
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What class is the kitsune playing?
If he is a caster, the simple solution is to just have the character have a number of tails equal to the highest spell level that he can cast, but gain no bonuses from them. He gains the flavor of being a multi-tailed fox without possibly nerfing himself into oblivion.
What class is the kitsune playing?
If he is a caster, the simple solution is to just have the character have a number of tails equal to the highest spell level that he can cast, but gain no bonuses from them. He gains the flavor of being a multi-tailed fox without possibly nerfing himself into oblivion.
That's ... pretty fraggin' brill, if I may say so.
@Mudfoot: Well, it wouldn't be a DM call. It's more like the players is torn between "effective" feats, and feats that suit the notion of the character. It's an idea I'm considering with him, but am not positive about yet. Shouldn't be too hard to track really. I mean, as the DM I'd have to tally how much he's "earned" via this method, but that's really not so bad. Especially planning since 1st.
Back in 3.0/3.5 I had a GM that allowed "Feat Books" - much like you have Stat boosting tomes or Metamagic Rods (in sense of access). They were 25,000gp each, going up by 25k for each feat before it in a tree. (So 25k for Power Attack, another 50k for Cleave, another 75k for Great Cleave - wicked expensive long term, but interesting).
@Douglas: Well, unfortunately there will be people who TRY to abuse the heck out of a system like this, but in a sense, it allows a good compromise against form and function. I mean, most people have in their mind a notion of what they want the character to be like - the iconic hero they hope to become - but when feats regulated whether or not you can get that... It's kinda rough.
On one hand, there really should be a cost. You can't give something for free without looking like a jolly fat-man in red. On the other, when you're taking someone like a Barbarian, the only feats you get are level - and to invest 4 of them into a racial tree for Wings or some-such, can seriously stunt your effectiveness. Then again, back to the cautious hand, a Barbarian that can fly, rage and dive is pretty damn menacing... It's tricky.
In the case of the Kitsune aiming for 9-tails status, I feel like there should be some other way than investing 8/10 feats. No matter what class you are, that's a heavy toll on what you're capable of, and compared to the return is questionable.
I wish there was an official guideline for something like this.
Zhayne, I ditto you - Matrix Dragon's suggestion is pretty awesome!
In this case, however, the class in question is most likely Samurai (Sword Saint).
I think I might feel extra generous, because it's an idea I have personally wanted to run for some time (living vicariously?).
In a sense of my personal character notion, I really just want them for flavor, which could be granted via story with no actual benefit other than visual effect and "Whoa... I didn't know our people still did that" value. Though I kinda like the notion of having dominate person...
(brigands kick in the door of an inn where you're sitting, eating)
"Give us all your valuables, or we'll kill you all!"
(shifts eye over thinking bloodshed will ruin everyone's appetite, focuses, Dominate as an SLA, resumes eating)
"...right after we give all OUR money to the poor, and help harvest the crops!"
(boss storms out - minions are confused)
"Uhm... boss."
(Kitsune in human disguise chases down his stew with some ale, and an imperceptible smirk, finishes his dinner then waits outside for their return)
That's ... pretty fraggin' brill, if I may say so.
:D Thanks!
Zhayne, I ditto you - Matrix Dragon's suggestion is pretty awesome!
In this case, however, the class in question is most likely Samurai (Sword Saint).
Dang, I was afraid that it wouldn't be that easy.
Well, after thinking on it, I would suggest this. First, don't just give the kitsune the tails without some sort of magic, because a big part of the legends behind kitsunes (from japan) is that you can guess at how strong a fox's magical powers are by its number of tails.
Instead, I think the solution is to combine it with another kitsune legend to turn it into an item: A Kitsune Star Ball. Make it an item that allows the kitsune to use certain spells as 'on activate' abilities from the item when he is holding it. This will let you price the item using the item crafting rules without any complications, and thus be able to easily calculate the character's wealth stuff. Have the item's powers (and the kitsune's number of tails) increase as the game progresses.
I'd probably base it on the abilities granted by the magical tail feats, and their usual progression (+1 tail and ability every two levels).
Of course, I came up with all this on the spot, so I don't know if this will really work for your game.
Hmm... I hate to ask this, considering the headaches it caused before...
But does Pathfinder have anything similar to the "Flaws" of D&D 3.5?
Sorta a reverse-feat taken at 1st level, with a penalty, that flavored out the character in return for a feat.
Pathfinder has the Drawback option for traits. Figured one might exist for feats that I just missed, but doubt it.
More clarification, they are opting for much the route I would... Think they're taking my idea entirely~ Heh.
They'll probably bank on the feats regardless of the drawback, to stick with the notion.
They're partially looking for the SLAs so they can take "Craft Magical Arms and Armor" and make their own multiple Katana.
(Hence the question of a penalty feat that'll get another Tail in exchange for the craft feat)
Unless some other option steps forward, or some compromise is met, they're ready to eat the cost with a flinch.
(Really hoping there's an equivalent to the Flaw system though)
The Star Bell is a pretty good idea though, if not what we're looking for.
A really good idea - in fact - for pulling from mythology off the cuff~
My mind keeps bouncing back and forth between the original mythology notion, and the Champions of Kamigawa Kitsune.
To the extent of my knowledge, PF doesn't have Flaws-for-Feats.
Hmm... I hate to ask this, considering the headaches it caused before...
But does Pathfinder have anything similar to the "Flaws" of D&D 3.5?
Paizo just came out with "Drawbacks" in the ultimate campaign book. Taking a drawback only gives a single bonus trait though. This makes them far more balanced than the Flaws that 3.5 had, but means it also isn't quite what you're looking for, lol.
Hmm... I hate to ask this, considering the headaches it caused before...
But does Pathfinder have anything similar to the "Flaws" of D&D 3.5?Sorta a reverse-feat taken at 1st level, with a penalty, that flavored out the character in return for a feat.
Pathfinder has the Drawback option for traits. Figured one might exist for feats that I just missed, but doubt it.More clarification, they are opting for much the route I would... Think they're taking my idea entirely~ Heh.
They'll probably bank on the feats regardless of the drawback, to stick with the notion.
They're partially looking for the SLAs so they can take "Craft Magical Arms and Armor" and make their own multiple Katana.
(Hence the question of a penalty feat that'll get another Tail in exchange for the craft feat)Unless some other option steps forward, or some compromise is met, they're ready to eat the cost with a flinch.
(Really hoping there's an equivalent to the Flaw system though)The Star Bell is a pretty good idea though, if not what we're looking for.
A really good idea - in fact - for pulling from mythology off the cuff~
My mind keeps bouncing back and forth between the original mythology notion, and the Champions of Kamigawa Kitsune.
Nope, but there is a similar feature in the Tome of Secrets, which is a 3rd party book. If he just wants the flavor and not the mechanics then let him get nine tails with no mechanics or you can give him nine tails, but change the mechanics so its not so powerful. That way he gets something for the feats, but not so much that he has to take so many feats to get it.
Running into brick walls - yay!
It'll be OK though. I think it'll be interesting either way. They're ready to accept the hit.
As it stands, this is what they're looking for (on the assumption they hit 20):
Magical Tail (1, 3, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17), Craft Magical Arms & Armor (5th), has no idea what to take for 6th bonus (would be Weapon Specialization but Focus is another feat they'd have to spend), Improved Critical: Katana (11th bonus), Critical Focus (17th Bonus), Staggering Critical (19th).
They love the Crit feats, and obviously Weapon Specialization (and greater) are a draw, but the tails, man, the tails.
Personally, I'd consider the hit for Unarmed Strike, so I could take the 3 Crane Style feats as bonus. =P
Hmm, You may want to try and fit power attack in there, maybe instead of Weapon Specialization. The feat is so good it is basically required for full BAB classes ;)
Well, there's his 6th level bonus, now isn't there? :)
Personally, I would find a way to reward all the characters similarly, surely there are non-optimized options the other players want? Reduce the loot overall to compensate and you're good.
@NinthMuskateer: Such as giving them each a character goal to pursue, like an item of legend, a forgotten tome, etc?
That could certainly work, though tailoring a specific thing for each player might be tricky.
(totally a side note)
Just had a crazy idea, and doubt it'll work, but... Is there any way to treat a Katana as a Monk Weapon...?
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(totally a side note)
Just had a crazy idea, and doubt it'll work, but... Is there any way to treat a Katana as a Monk Weapon...?Check out this
Just curious, have you seen the story feats Rageling? They're a new type of feat that starts out with a weak bonus, and then gives a better bonus when you earn it. Some are kind of crazy, such as Blessed which gives you permanent protection from evil once it is completed.
You may be able to come up with a custom story feat for a kitsune to 'earn' its tails. Have him gain some minor abilities (and a tail or two) when he gains the feat, and then Dominate Person and more tails when he completes it. Yea, the progression to nine tails isn't as smooth, but it is a possible option.
i would let the kitsune take those feats as bonuses through storyline anyway
other non-kitsune would get a similar number of feats based on background, roleplaying, and leveling to a max of 1 of these for free at level 1, and 1 at every even numbered level after without prerequisites
example feats could be
Racial Feats (the kind nobody can afford to take)
Skill Related Feats
Weapon Proficiencies
Additional Traits
Teamwork Feats
Entry level chain feats (Combat Expertise, Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Dodge, Point Blank Shot and the like)
Extra Whatever (anything really)
open minded (psionics unleashed)
toughness
save boosters
racial heritage (takeable multiple times)
fast learner
weapon finesse/dervish dance/pirahna strike (1 at a time)
entry level style feat
fey foundling
lingering performance
a single archetype ability from another archetype, single revelation from another mystery, or single bloodline power from another bloodline
i'd also allow feat books for 5,000 GP x the number of feats before it in the chain or books for archetype/class abilities for 2,000 x class level prerequisite.
I did the expotential scale for my game where I would sell training in some specific feats. It was number of feats bought so far squared times somewhere between 2500 and 5000gp iirc.
@ArmoredMonk13: OK, maybe it's just work this week, but my brain's getting frazzled going through that thread. There is tons of yes/no/maybe as far in as I am, no there really seems to be no clarifying in sight. Monk of the Open Hand gets the closest without multiclassing. Crusader's Flurry is an interesting lead-in with a level of cleric, but I'm not sure about it. Side note, I find both Ki Focus and Ki Intensifying weapons to be very confusing... they work with your stuff, but don't give you proficiency with them. Really weird.
@Lumiere Dawnbringer: I fear that level of openness might be the proverbial "can of worms". The feats/boosts could be OK - would take some review. The feat books for that cheap would be crazy accessible. Archetype abilities? I think that right there would be taking an opener to the aforementioned can. But still, the above is reasonable return, if not over-all empowering.
@Abraham Spalding: You didn't find that such ready access to other feats and such at such an accessible price, made things a little... Too easy? My worry about lessening the costs is this - if you offer players access to it, you must consider villains have access to it, and in many cases their lack of morals will lead to a higher bank account for resources. I have to pause and think that low in cost.
@Matrix Dragon: No, actually, but I'm looking into them right now. They certainly LOOK in the right direction.
(EDIT IN) "Nemesis" is like "Toughness" on crack, if you like the challenge, and don't need it as a prerequisite.
Well the first time I did it I limited it to one bought feat for every 4 levels. After that I just had a list of what feats could be bought in this manner... it was something like alertness, acrobatic, run, medium armor proficiency, martial weapon proficiency and so on. The villians did have access to it too but I found it wasn't taken too often.
At lower level even if iron will is on the table it's 5k for a +2... which a cloak will give for 4k (albeit as a more common bonus type).
Also it did take down time to learn (about a day per 1k of the price like magic items) and I did reserve the right to shoot something down if I felt it was needed.
This isn't to say I didn't have my concerns but I did trust my players and discussed the idea openly with them before we implemented it. Honestly they usually wanted to buy something else... but for that one player that really wants the specific feats it does give him a means of choosing what he was going to give up for them.
Other thoughts I had was to allow the purchase of bonus feats up front at the start of the game at the cost of using a lower point buy. If the game was going to be a 25 point buy a 20 point buy would get you one bonus feat. Never had anyone actually take this option though.
