Crusader Cleric gives you Weapon Focus at first level.
Some of the other responses mentioned Sohi as a route to go but with weapon training groups available you can't use a katana to flurry unless you house rule it.
At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature: bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons.
No, the Crusader Cleric archetype.
blackbloodtroll wrote: Crusader Cleric gives you Weapon Focus at first level. BOOM! There ya go! Crusader Cleric archetype at 1st level, monk-efy and take the crusader's flurry feat at 3rd...no need to wait and no need to dip fighter. Booyah!
blackbloodtroll wrote: No, the Crusader Cleric archetype. Sorry blackbloodtroll my bad. I deleted that part of the post.
Now getting proficient with your gods weapon and having exotic weapon feat with the weapon. Would this be the same thing for qualifying for crusade flurry? The reason I'm asking this is because
Crusader Cleric gives you weapon focus free at first level as well you get proficient with your gods weapon.
Advantage:
If your human you can spend your 2 feats at 1st level on other choices and at 3rd level you take crusader flurry.
If you are playing a non human race you'll get the ability to flurry with your weapon at 3rd level.
Ok I found my answer in a priour post.
Exotic Weapon Feat vs. Proficiency
If you play a Aasimar and take Enlightened Warrior feat you don't have to have a Lawful alignment.
Enlightened Warrior (Aasimar)
You have always found it easy to maintain inner peace and enlightenment that translate well to the battlefield.
Benefit: You may take levels in monk even while maintaining a neutral or neutral good alignment.
Now you can play that Barbarian/Monk lol.
GOOD TIMES!!!
Jeff Clem wrote: Now getting proficient with your gods weapon and having exotic weapon feat with the weapon. Would this be the same thing for qualifying for crusade flurry? Yes. Class-granted weapon proficiency functions the same as proficiency granted by MWP or EWP. Same goes for armor proficiency (except for disregarding ASF which is only granted by class).
Azten wrote: Just one level of Monk of the Empty Hand and you can use Flurry of blws with anything you can pick up. I second this. While the stats get made into something like a quaterstaff due to the fact that it is an "improvised weapon" for them, you eventually can get a feat as a bonus feat that gives it the same stats as a greatsword.
Although, with all this theorycraft, I think we are all forgetting something: The nodachi.
The nodachi is a large japanese sword (over four feet; basically a large katana) that was largely used as a decorative weapon, but when used on the battle field it would serve as an anti-cavalry weapon. Due to its large size, it was hardly suitable for indoors, and its purpose on the battlefield made it somewhat similar to a polearm. Which is likely why it is also under the polearm section for weapon training.
A sohei can flurry with spears, monk weapons, bows, crossbows, thrown weapons, and polearms. There. Done. Sure, it takes until level 6 to start up, but it is still fairly easy and simple to pull off. You can have the weapon proficiency from level 1 if you take a half elf. Can't remember if it was martial, or if the eastern weapons even get considered martial outside of an eastern campaign setting, but meh.
Jeff Clem wrote: If you play a Aasimar and take Enlightened Warrior trait you don't have to have a Lawful alignment.
Enlightened Warrior (Aasimar)
You have always found it easy to maintain inner peace and enlightenment that translate well to the battlefield.
Benefit: You may take levels in monk even while maintaining a neutral or neutral good alignment.
Now you can play that Barbarian/Monk lol.
GOOD TIMES!!!
From what source is the feat, 'Crusader Flurry'?
Malachi Silverclaw wrote: From what source is the feat, 'Crusader Flurry'? Ultimate Combat.
See here.
Cheers, BBT!
Next question: Are there any monk archetypes that allow them to flurry while wearing armour?
Malachi Silverclaw wrote: Cheers, BBT!
Next question: Are there any monk archetypes that allow them to flurry while wearing armour?
Maneuver Master. Flurry of Maneuvers lacks the restrictions on armor, shields, and monk weapons that's present in Flurry of Blows.
Arguably sohei. The no flurry in armor clause is written under the monk's proficiencies, not under flurry of blows itself. The question is whether the sohei's proficiency entry modifies or replaces the standard monk's proficiencies.
Darigaaz the Igniter wrote: Arguably sohei. The no flurry in armor clause is written under the monk's proficiencies, not under flurry of blows itself. The question is whether the sohei's proficiency entry modifies or replaces the standard monk's proficiencies. That... is actually quite an astute observation.
From Monk:
PRD wrote: Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Monks are proficient with the club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shortspear, short sword, shuriken, siangham, sling, and spear.
Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields.
When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.
From Sohei:
PRD wrote: Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A sohei is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light armor. So a Sohei, regardless of what load, armor, or shield he wears (proficient or otherwise), can still use both Flurry of Blows and Monk AC bonus (and would be able to use Fast Movement if he didn't lose that class feature anyway).
Still, Maneuver Master can still use FoM regardless because FoM isn't a "modification" of FoB but rather a whole new, unique skill. He'd still lose the Monk AC bonus and Fast Movement, though.
Can a Sohei flurry etc. in armour?
Seems like it. The prohibition between flurry and armor is present in the Weapons and Armor Proficiency block. Though, on further inspection, the prohibition is repeated in both Fast Movement and AC bonus blocks so those are still restricted.
It's the flurry part than I'm interested in.
Paladin4/Monk1, in armour and Crusader Flurrying: possible or not?
I'd say you're a go. FoB doesn't have a flurry restriction other than a Monk weapon and the armor restriction is imposed by weapon/armor proficiency which is wiped out by the Sohei archetype. Ergo, by covering the Monk weapon restriction with Crusader Flurry, you're good to go flurry in full plate with a tower shield.
Cheers, Kazaan!
Any naysayers?
Malachi Silverclaw wrote: Cheers, Kazaan!
Any naysayers?
I have to say no. The proficiency is not tied to flurry.
Nothing says you can't flurry in armor BECAUSE you aren't proficient.
It just says you can't flurry in armor AND you aren't proficient.
Sohei gives proficiency but says nothing about removing the restriction.
Nothing keeps the Sohei from losing all the unarmored monk goodies when wearing armor.
Looking at Sohei, it makes sense that the ability to wear armour wouldn't be mutually exclusive with monk abilities. Otherwise why is Sohei a monk?
Since they don't get Fast Movement they can't worry about not getting it. It makes sense that they don't get the unarmoured AC bonus while armoured. But it makes sense to keep flurry, and if you were to do the typesetting of the complete Sohei monk, there would be nothing to say that they can't flurry when armoured.
Sohei are expected to wear armour. If that stopped them Flurrying they would have replaced it with something useful.
Malachi Silverclaw wrote: Looking at Sohei, it makes sense that the ability to wear armour wouldn't be mutually exclusive with monk abilities. Otherwise why is Sohei a monk?
Since they don't get Fast Movement they can't worry about not getting it. It makes sense that they don't get the unarmoured AC bonus while armoured. But it makes sense to keep flurry, and if you were to do the typesetting of the complete Sohei monk, there would be nothing to say that they can't flurry when armoured.
Sohei are expected to wear armour. If that stopped them Flurrying they would have replaced it with something useful.
You are now out of RAW and into RAI.
And all we have to go on regarding RAI is the original developer for it that imagined "no flurry in armor."
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2n203&page=2?Sohei-Monk-armor-and-flurry-of -blows#61
Lets look at some differences here:
Monk of the Empty Hand PRD wrote: Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Monks of the empty hand are proficient with the shuriken only. A monk of the empty hand treats normal weapons as improvised weapons with the following equivalencies (substituting all of their statistics for the listed weapon): a light weapon functions as a light hammer, a one-handed weapon functions as a club, and a two-handed weapon functions as a quarterstaff. This replaces the normal monk weapon proficiencies. Zen Archer PRD wrote: Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Zen archers are proficient with longbows, shortbows, composite longbows, and composite shortbows in addition to their normal weapon proficiencies. Dervish Dancer PRD wrote: Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Dervish dancers gain weapon proficiency with the scimitar and kukri. This ability replaces their proficiency with the rapier and whip. Sohei PRD wrote: Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A sohei is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light armor. (full_stop) In every single other archetype change to Weapon and Armor Proficiency, they use language like "gains" or "replaces the normal weapon proficiency" or, in some manner, segregates out a particular part of the composite for change. Sohei, however, is a full replacement. It doesn't say they "gain" proficiency in all simple and martial weapons, it says "a sohei is proficient..." That's not an addition; it's quite clearly a replacement.
Kazaan wrote: Lets look at some differences here:
Monk of the Empty Hand PRD wrote: Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Monks of the empty hand are proficient with the shuriken only. A monk of the empty hand treats normal weapons as improvised weapons with the following equivalencies (substituting all of their statistics for the listed weapon): a light weapon functions as a light hammer, a one-handed weapon functions as a club, and a two-handed weapon functions as a quarterstaff. This replaces the normal monk weapon proficiencies.
You are ignoring this part of your own post. The first example shows an archetype that replaces it and it states that it is replacing it. The same logic you applied to it being a full replacement work the other way as well.
Aha!
Quote: A monk of the glorious endeavor is proficient with only a single weapon, which is chosen at 1st level. This may be any weapon, including exotic weapons but excluding shields or armor spikes. Once selected, the weapon proficiency cannot be changed. This replaces the normal monk weapon proficiencies. And...
Quote: Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk of the
glorious endeavor can make a flurry of blows using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with his chosen weapon. A monk of the glorious endeavor’s flurry of blows otherwise functions as normal for a monk of his level.
This is from Kobold Press, "New Paths: The Expanded Monk & Ninja".
Sah wrote: Kazaan wrote: Lets look at some differences here:
Monk of the Empty Hand PRD wrote: Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Monks of the empty hand are proficient with the shuriken only. A monk of the empty hand treats normal weapons as improvised weapons with the following equivalencies (substituting all of their statistics for the listed weapon): a light weapon functions as a light hammer, a one-handed weapon functions as a club, and a two-handed weapon functions as a quarterstaff. This replaces the normal monk weapon proficiencies.
You are ignoring this part of your own post. The first example shows an archetype that replaces it and it states that it is replacing it. The same logic you applied to it being a full replacement work the other way as well. The ability is "Weapon and armor proficiency". It doesn't say it replaces "Weapon and armor proficiency", it segregates out only the "weapons" portion of it, leaving the remainder intact. Myth busted.
Kazaan wrote: Sah wrote: Kazaan wrote: Lets look at some differences here:
Monk of the Empty Hand PRD wrote: Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Monks of the empty hand are proficient with the shuriken only. A monk of the empty hand treats normal weapons as improvised weapons with the following equivalencies (substituting all of their statistics for the listed weapon): a light weapon functions as a light hammer, a one-handed weapon functions as a club, and a two-handed weapon functions as a quarterstaff. This replaces the normal monk weapon proficiencies.
You are ignoring this part of your own post. The first example shows an archetype that replaces it and it states that it is replacing it. The same logic you applied to it being a full replacement work the other way as well. The ability is "Weapon and armor proficiency". It doesn't say it replaces "Weapon and armor proficiency", it segregates out only the "weapons" portion of it, leaving the remainder intact. Myth busted. Irrelevant. Your argument is that Sohei replaces the text despite not saying that. Your examples all include language indicating replacement/gain, thus not supporting your argument.
I'm exactly sure what you're trying to accomplish with that argument anyway. None of your examples touch on the monk restrictions either, so unless you're trying to argue that a Monk of the Empty Hand can flurry in armor because the weapon/armor proficiency replacement text didn't clearly state otherwise, it's not clear where you're going.
Oh, it's clear. But that's not going to stop certain individuals from refusing to accept it. Here, I'll clearly state it again.
Any other time Weapon and Armor Proficiency changes made by archetype add to a select part of that particular stat block, it specifies. In the case of Zen Archer, it specifies "in addition to their normal weapon proficiencies" which means you take the whole vanilla monk block, section out the part dealing with weapons, and add the designated Zen Archer options. Same goes for Dervish Dancer, you section off the vanilla bard's part dealing with weapons, add Scimitar and Kukri, and excise Whip and Rapier. Same goes for Monk of the Empty Hand, you excise the whole part dealing with weapons and replace it with the designated new options, leaving armor and flurry restrictions intact. Sohei, however, doesn't specify that it replaces only the Weapons portion. It states, quite simply, "A Sohei is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and light armor." The lack of any qualifier of "... in addition to normal weapon proficiencies" means it isn't "in addition to". If it isn't "in addition to", then the whole Weapon and Armor Proficiency stat block is being replaced in its entirety, including the Flurry restriction on armor and shields. Also, it removes the specific weapons called out by vanilla monk proficiencies. So, while weapons like Quarterstaff will be recovered through proficiency in all simple and martial weapons, any exotic weapons listed such as the siangham will not be replaced, meaning a Sohei is not, by default, proficient in the Siangham, for example. So only a Sohei can flurry in armor, while a MotEH cannot because that archetype sections out the weapon proficiency clause from the larger Weapons and Armor Profiency block. All my examples include language indicating "replacement" of specific portions and "gain" in addition to existing benefits. Sohei lacks both of these, therefore, Sohei's archetype change to Weapon and Armor Proficiency is neither a gain, nor a specific replacement; the only option left is a general replacement.
Kazaan wrote: The lack of any qualifier of "... in addition to normal weapon proficiencies" means it isn't "in addition to". If it isn't "in addition to", then the whole Weapon and Armor Proficiency stat block is being replaced in its entirety, including the Flurry restriction on armor and shields. This is entirely your unsupported speculation.
Nothing anywhere says or implies it means that.
It could just as easily be "The lack of any qualifier of 'This replaces the normal monk weapon proficiencies' means it isn't 'This replaces the normal monk weapon proficiencies'. Then the whole Weapon and Armor Proficiency stat block isn't being replaced in its entirety, including the Flurry restriction on armor and shields."
As far as I can tell you've taken a section that doesn't says it adds or replaces and have read in the way you want it to work.
To me (and the guy that wrote it), it seems like a better interpretation is when an archetype adds a feature that is not present in the original and doesn't directly conflict with anything, to assume that feature is simply additional rather than deleting non-referenced portions.
Ok kazaan, so you are arguing that sohei only have a single class skill?
SRD wrote: Skills
A sohei gains Handle Animal as a class skill.
or that the only bonus feat he can select is
SRD wrote: Bonus Feats
A sohei may select Mounted Combat feats as bonus feats.
?
Dekalinder wrote: Ok kazaan, so you are arguing that sohei only have a single class skill?
SRD wrote: Skills
A sohei gains Handle Animal as a class skill.
"Gains" is the key word here
or that the only bonus feat he can select is
SRD wrote: Bonus Feats
A sohei may select Mounted Combat feats as bonus feats.
This one is actually a bit more ambiguous. "may select" can be interpreted as functionally equivalent to "gains" or "in addition to"... or it may actually be a total replacement, meaning Sohei doesn't gain any of the normal Monk bonus feats; may be a good FAQ candidate.
?
Comments now with 100% more bold flavor.
Torger Miltenberger wrote: Realmwalker wrote: If you and your DM don't mind 3rd Party Publishers you can Look at The Talented Monk from Super Genius Games. Is that a base class or an archetype? I can't seem to find it on the SRD
- Torger It is a Base Class
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