I have looked for this in other forums but I couldn't find it though my search was no where near extensive, but having just played the fight at the winter portal and then looked it over afterwards I have come to the conclusion that Neil was doing his best killer GM imitation here.
The real killer is the combination of limited visibility and monsters with unlimited ranged attacks. We were able to put down the troll fairly easily and one of the fairies met his death due to meeting a wildly thrown alchemist bomb, but hommelstaub should kill the party every time. If he hadn't got bored a left we would have all died. He doesn't have to even be near the party to throw his rocks and even at one point of damage he can do it indefinitely and then with reduce person at will all he has to do is fly around with the PC's having no way to see him nickle and diming them until the last party member dies surrounded by the shrunken corpses of his party. The PC's inability to move makes it impossible to close to melee and they cant see him to hit him the range.
Please someone tell me I missed something because Neil Spicer is in grave danger if he comes within 100 miles of my group at the moment.
If you've killed everything else then just go to the portal itself. Visibility is clear there.
Okay. First, do note this: the weather will affect the monsters as much, if not more, than the players. What does this mean? Constant fly checks for any winged critter (ice-touched sprites and a certain winter oracle). Next, they will have to roll perception checks to try and find the party. This is a white-out condition, and only ONE of them has the ability to see through snow. Just as the PCs are blinded, so are the gate guardians.
So rather than a battle where two fae, a winter oracle, and a troll descend and take apart an ill-equipped group of adventurers, it's a massive game of blind-man's bluff. And once they start fighting... EVERYONE gets concealment except from Hommelstaub! Every single shot has a 20% chance of missing. That critical hit from the troll? Oh wait, roll for concealment! That alchemist's fire? Roll for concealment.
This will be a hugely frustrating battle. But it'll be frustrating for both groups.
As for Hommelstaub... don't forget to factor in the wind. The wind will reduce his ranged effectiveness. Eventually he's forced either to attack in hand-to-hand combat... or flee. And when the wind and snow forces him to land because he fails a Fly check? He's lame. He can't move in deep snow.
Okay. First, do note this: the weather will affect the monsters as much, if not more, than the players. What does this mean? Constant fly checks for any winged critter (ice-touched sprites and a certain winter oracle). Next, they will have to roll perception checks to try and find the party. This is a white-out condition, and only ONE of them has the ability to see through snow. Just as the PCs are blinded, so are the gate guardians. ...
As for Hommelstaub... don't forget to factor in the wind. The wind will reduce his ranged effectiveness. Eventually he's forced either to attack in hand-to-hand combat... or flee. And when the wind and snow forces him to land because he fails a Fly check? He's lame. He can't move in deep snow.
Where do you get this information. I don't see where any of this is mentioned in the book. It says that the wind affects sight but nothing else. Maybe I'm just blind but I'm not seeing it
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I'm not seeing the bit about the wind either, though snow affects ranged attacks, Perception checks and flames like a severe wind. It doesn't actually do anything against flying creatures.
That said, there's ways around Hommelstaub. The entire camp is diurnal, meaning the party can encounter them on their own terms if they approach at night. Given the distance, a battle in either the igloo or Teb Knotten's cave wouldn't alert the other, unless Hommelstaub tosses his thunderstone. And while Hommelstaub might be able to sling some stones at the party, he has to contend with the snowy conditions on ranged attacks as well, and he's only got three magic stones. His liquid ice similarly has problems.
I will say that I'm not a fan of giving the flying creature the lame curse. That is pretty lame, and not the way it was intended. A curse that doesn't come into play isn't a curse. I'd personally change the curse to something else, maybe wasting or deaf. For fun, clouded vision!
Well, clearly the Winter Portal is not a TPK every time or even most of the time. Otherwise, there wouldn't be GMs or players posting on the RoW boards who are in groups that have made it to Books 2, 3, 4, and 5; and since there are plenty of groups that have made it beyond Neil Spicer's contribution I can only assume the Winter Portal isn't a problem for the majority.
Edit: This post isn't meant to sound snarky. I'm not yet running RoW for my players so I can't offer first hand advice, only theorycrafting (which I generally try to avoid when giving advice). My point is, there are GMs on this board who have gotten past this point in the AP and there may be discussion about how it played out in the Snows of Summer GM thread.
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From pages 28-29:
After 3 days of sustained snowfall, Irrisen’s first scouts emerged from the winter portal, led by a moss troll named Teb Knotten. He works for Nazhena Vasilliovna, one of Elvanna’s many great-granddaughters. Nazhena charged Teb with securing a foothold in Taldor and ensuring no one crosses back into Irrisen to disrupt her efforts in shaping and worsening the weather in the Border Wood. Teb set up a camp next to the portal, which he personally guards, sending Izoze and the winter-touched sprites to deal with Rohkar’s Bandits and other threats in the forest. Nazhena has since gone to Whitethrone to report on her work, leaving her apprentice, Radosek Pavril, in charge of the portal. Both Radosek and Teb have redoubled their efforts in her absence.
Because of the presence of the winter portal, the snow in this clearing reaches depths of 2 to 4 feet. Entering a square covered with heavy snow costs 4 squares of movement, and overland ravel rates are reduced by 75%. These penalties are reduced for those wearing snowshoes. Heavy snow blows from the portal as well, obscuring all sight (including darkvision) beyond 5 feet, and granting concealment to creatures 5 feet away.
The pertinent line is the last sentence.
In addition, this is from the Winter Portal description:
A bank of quill-like icicles spear outward in a ring, seemingly grown from a heavy sheet of ice covering the ground. A second ring of giant icicle-shaped monoliths stands inside the outer ring, surrounding a swirling cylindrical vortex easily ten feet in diameter. Icy winds and driving snow blast from the vortex, creating the wintry weather in the clearing.
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In short, heavy snow is blowing in from the Portal and through the entire camp. The snow is blizzard conditions and is blowing fairly hard in that the snow is in white-out conditions due to the wind, which is stated in the description, which uses words like "blast" and also comments about how the Portal and the area around it is not accumulating snow - the wind is strong and constant enough to prevent accumulation in that area (sort of like one spot of my driveway in fact - even during the blizzards last year in New England it had maybe two inches of snow, while other parts of the driveway had snow drifts of nearly three feet).
These two sections, describing heavy snow that keeps you from seeing further than five feet and winds strong enough to prevent accumulation of heavy snow, suggest a snowy white-out condition with wind. Flying critters will have problems.
I see your point but there are no rules saying that. I play with an autistic player that goes nuts when rules are pulled out of nowhere. As it is written Hommelstaub is free to fly around and throw his rocks with its numbing cold as much as he wants
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Actually, there are rules on it.
From the PRD of the Core Rulebook on Environment:
Heavy Snow: Heavy snow has the same effects as normal snowfall but also restricts visibility as fog does (see Fog). A day of heavy snow leaves 1d4 feet of snow on the ground, and it costs 4 squares of movement to enter a square covered with heavy snow. Heavy snow accompanied by strong or severe winds might result in snowdrifts 1d4 × 5 feet deep, especially in and around objects big enough to deflect the wind—a cabin or a large tent, for instance. There is a 10% chance that a heavy snowfall is accompanied by lightning (see Thunderstorm). Snow has the same effect on flames as moderate wind.
And winds:
Wind Force | Wind Speed | Ranged Attacks - Normal/Siege Weapons1 | Checked Size2 | Blown Away Size | Fly Penalty
Strong | 21–30 mph | –2/— | Tiny | — | –2
1 The siege weapon category includes ballista and catapult attacks as well as boulders tossed by giants.
2 Checked Size: Creatures of this size or smaller are unable to move forward against the force of the wind unless they succeed on a DC 10 Strength check (if on the ground) or a DC 20 Fly skill check if airborne.
Addendum note: Fog - Whether in the form of a low-lying cloud or a mist rising from the ground, fog obscures all sight beyond 5 feet, including darkvision. Creatures 5 feet away have concealment (attacks by or against them have a 20% miss chance).
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The description and stating that visibility is only 5 feet pretty much confirms this is a Heavy Snow environment. In addition, winds are also confirmed and the description of the winds is indicative of strong-quality winds. You can claim otherwise, sure. But environmental effects are still in full swing here and will impact the villains.
Ironically, the most effective use of Hommelstaub is flying off into the snow and acting as a "seeing-eye fey" to bring the other fey and Ted to the PCs. Even then, the fey will not be able to effectively use ranged attacks because of the severe conditions.
Edit the Second: You never expect the Tangential Ninjaquisition! Our tools are sneakiness! Sneakiness and fast typing! Our two tools are sneakiness, fast typing, and a high-speed internet connection...
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I see your point but there are no rules saying that. I play with an autistic player that goes nuts when rules are pulled out of nowhere. As it is written Hommelstaub is free to fly around and throw his rocks with its numbing cold as much as he wants
Where do you get "no rules" from a massive quoting of the pertinent rules? Just for kicks, here's some more rules:
"Heavy Snow: Heavy snow has the same effects as normal snowfall but also restricts visibility as fog does (see Fog). A day of heavy snow leaves 1d4 feet of snow on the ground, and it costs 4 squares of movement to enter a square covered with heavy snow. Heavy snow accompanied by strong or severe winds might result in snowdrifts 1d4 × 5 feet deep, especially in and around objects big enough to deflect the wind—a cabin or a large tent, for instance. There is a 10% chance that a heavy snowfall is accompanied by lightning (see Thunderstorm). Snow has the same effect on flames as moderate wind."
It's presented in a very confusing manner. Technically, Heavy Snow has all the effects of "a normal snowfall", which has the same effect "on visibility, ranged weapon attacks, and skill checks as rain", which has the same effect "on flames, ranged weapon attacks, and Perception checks as severe wind". By the transitive property, heavy snow has the same effect on flames, ranged weapon attacks, and Perception checks as severe wind, plus some more Perception and movement penalties (and a miss chance, which Hommelstaub ignores) stacked on top. Severe wind imposes a -4 penalty on ranged weapon attacks, so heavy snow should do the same.
There's another factor to consider. "Heavy snow accompanied by strong or severe winds might result in snowdrifts 1d4 × 5 feet deep, especially in and around objects big enough to deflect the wind—a cabin or a large tent, for instance." Such drifts are present at the Winter Portal. Thus it is reasonable to conclude that the only thing in the rules capable of creating such drifts - severe wind - is present as well. So on top of the penalties that heavy snow imposes that are the same as severe wind, you also have the penalties that actual severe wind imposes. Severe wind "checks" [i.e., renders unable to move forward without a check] small creatures and "blows away" [i.e., knocks down if standing or blows back if flying and deals nonlethal damage] tiny creatures. Hommelstaub is a flying, diminutive creature. He should be making DC 25 Fly checks every round to stay airborne. Oh, and he'll be making them at a -4 penalty.
I suppose strong winds could be present instead, which ameliorates his situation a bit. He'll only be checked by the wind, not blown away, and he'll only suffer a -2 penalty to his Fly checks. But since the penalty to his ranged attacks comes from the snow as well as the wind, he'll still suffer the -4 penalty there.
EDIT: darn ninjas.
As the aforementioned autistic player, I thank you for your responses.
That was an extremely frustrating encounter, made worse that the weather rules you (Tangent101 and zimmerwald1915) were kind enough to remind me of were just not coming to memory, making an already difficult encounter a potential TPK with an unseeable micro-sniper out there plinking us for a point of damage at a time, staggering us so that we couldn't even get into the igloos for defense. I'm going to be so happy to get out of this module--every encounter has been frustrating in one way or another.
...every encounter has been frustrating in one way or another.
Every encounter?
Well, in some ways, I guess that's a bit appropos. This module is intended to both frustrate and demonstrate the potency of what winter-themed fey (and their allies) can do to their adversaries. This is basically a microcosm of how Baba Yaga's minions were able to overrun the eastern lands of the Linnorm Kings.
That said, I hear your frustration. Some of it may be the encounter setups, creature tactics, and environmental conditions. Some of it may just be how things ran at your particular table. It's true that many other groups seem to be handling the encounters (and overall adventure) fairly handily, as well. So, it could come down to player strategies and the capabilities of their PCs. Hopefully, things pick up for you in the latter half of the adventure at the Pale Tower.
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Or it may be that the rules were confusing enough and split up into two pages of the AP book that most GMs ignored or missed this bit.
I mean, let's take Runelords and the Skinsaw Murders. At one point there is a steep slippery slope four ghasts are scrambling up to reach the party. They should be affected by the slipperiness as well and either have to do climb checks (and thus move slower and allow the party a couple rounds of missile fire on them) or acrobatics checks (which risks them slipping - I ended up with three failures for the ghasts during the entire battle). However, the rules do not state the ghasts have to roll and I could see GMs allowing them to move as normal.
Similarly, the rules do not state the Fae are adversely affected by the weather so I could see GMs not having them roll fly checks or even being affected by the snow and the inability to see.
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Or it may be that the rules were confusing enough and split up into two pages of the AP book that most GMs ignored or missed this bit.
I mean, let's take Runelords and the Skinsaw Murders. At one point there is a steep slippery slope four ghasts are scrambling up to reach the party. They should be affected by the slipperiness as well and either have to do climb checks (and thus move slower and allow the party a couple rounds of missile fire on them) or acrobatics checks (which risks them slipping - I ended up with three failures for the ghasts during the entire battle). However, the rules do not state the ghasts have to roll and I could see GMs allowing them to move as normal.
Similarly, the rules do not state the Fae are adversely affected by the weather so I could see GMs not having them roll fly checks or even being affected by the snow and the inability to see.
What's more, many GMs won't want to bother. They have more important things to do than remember to make Fly checks every round :P
What's more, many GMs won't want to bother. They have more important things to do than remember to make Fly checks every round :P
I think the problem is that there is no mention to even check on these rules. Like JoeOutside said nobody at our table remember that these rules existed, including my walking rules encyclopedia. I don't think it would have taken that much more space to put in a line that say check heavy snow rules
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It's mentioned briefly at the start of the first chapter of the first book.
However, after that the descriptions for the scenes DO NOT ACCOUNT for the lack of visibility from constant snowfall. There are scenes in which it strongly hints the snow has stopped - such as the Hut with Thora, where a message was written in the snow!
Given the temperature, the constant snowfall, and the continued snowfall, I'm surprised that the entire region isn't deep snow by now. But I suppose that can be handwaved away as the ground was still warmer than the air for a while, and thus the snow took a while to stick. Several days, in fact. Considering it was the middle of summer when the game started, this could be a reasonable assumption.
Well, in some ways, I guess that's a bit appropos. This module is intended to both frustrate and demonstrate the potency of what winter-themed fey (and their allies) can do to their adversaries. This is basically a microcosm of how Baba Yaga's minions were able to overrun the eastern lands of the Linnorm Kings.
There is a reason that winter fey have become kill on sight at our table. I personally have been loving the adventure so far.
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Just to add something since I just finished the module...there are a lot of tactics that are thrown out as ones to be used that actually can't...monsters charging when all the terrain is difficult is one example. The creator of this module did a delightful job but WAY erred on the side of making it deadly (inaccurately so at times) for the pcs, along with dumping them in the wilderness where they can't cash in lootage for a decent gear upgrade, etc.....a good DM needs to sift through and edit these out, along with ideas like a cleric keeping two exploding skeletons in a small room with him (?!) among others. And don't get me started on how a constantly healing flying creature can spell doom for a party retreating for HOURS through the snow back to the lodge. Talk about luck that pulled that one out of the fire....well, the frost...note to self:tanglefoot bags are primo against flying creatures. Make sure that alchemist in town drops a hint about them against the flying fey if your party isn't clued into it and has plenty to sell. Drop a lowly charged mm wand in the mix (maybe a true strike item of some sort for a trusty alchemic fire) instead of that insanely expensive one, use the rules for cold that are used in the second module (which only can be explained by the fact that cold weather outfits in Irrisen are...better?) and move on. That is how most of these modules are-they make them deadlier than they really should be if you are following the rules your players are used to because of over excitement by the designer, poor editing, being too lazy to throw in something else to keep it deadly without bending some rules and leaving out others...you get the idea. It is part of the us versus them dynamic that can make the game interesting, but also problematic. They are great starters, and a steal at the price considering how complex they are, but you REALLY need to sift through them with a fine toothed comb and pick apart all the dynamics of an encounter if not a larger campaign and edit out the inconsistencies, slanted rule interpretations, overlooked balancing factors, etc. . Heck look at the thread on cursed objects and see how a mage can actually tell if something is cursed just by doing a little bit of comparison of aura strength and school of magic...there are ways there that I sometimes if were put in place to actually give the observant (and argumentative) players an advantage. But don't make them be so argumentative....edit.