Over the past few days, I've been perusing this board heavily looking for cool Sylph characters and trying to build my own. Thing is, if my GM would say "You can play a Sylph, but only as a Fighter or Barbarian", I would still jump at the chance to play one.
For me, the race is more important than the Class. And in thinking about it, I came to the belief that anyone who plays a race from Advanced Race Guide would probably be playing more for the race than Class as well (with the extreme optimization players of course, who find the perfect race for their perfect class :P)
So, I'm thinking of building a Guide, like those made for the Classes, but for my favorite race, starting with the Barbarian. Obviously the Barbarian would be red/bad as a choice, but hoping to at the same time show the most viable/optimized way to build a Sylph for any class... even a Barbarian.
My initial thoughts for Barbarians is speed and level 9 Fly. A Sylph Barbarian could move at a move-rate of 120 with some effort in the right circumstance... (30 racial move, +5 racial trait move Like the Wind, +10 barbarian move, +15 from 3x Swift Foot Rage Power, double movement for chasing down someone running away No Escape Rage Power).
I'm thinking a small ball of speed and fury as a barbarian. Likely Beast Totem powers, maybe stacked (thematically) with Elemental powers for bonus damage.
Obviously this only works with Weapon Finesse, since you'd be dependent on Dex, and would need too many points into Con to have much Strength left over. A little spitfire wolverine who depends on the sharpness of her claws over the power of her hit.
Would love some input as I begin with this particular class. :)
Dex based Urban Barbarians (who can rage with dex instead) are both quite viable and quite horrible to see coming. Suddenly you hit more often and are more difficult to hit. Always funny. Agile weaponry will also be your best friend.
Not saying any DM would, BBT, just saying if he did, I'd still jump at the chance to play a Sylph. ;)
And yeah, Urban Barbarian looks pretty cool... though would lose the nice bonus movement.
Ok, I remember Agile Weapon being the allowance of Dex in place of Str for damage, but I can't find it in the books.
Also, Dervish Dance, isn't that a Bard thing? o.O
Yeah, with +2int/+2dex/-2con, I'd say they are quite suited for the witch and wizard classes, and indeed their racial wizard archetype is quite decent. Greater Invisibility as an EX ability is good, as is spontaneous divination (though the arcane bond is probably better, you can get it via feats).
That said, the ability to gain supernatural flight in light or no armour, does go well with a barbarian (even if that -2con doesn't). A constant flight speed of 35 is quite good. Of course, this would also help anyone that don't plan to wear medium or heavier armour tremendously.
Ok, I remember Agile Weapon being the allowance of Dex in place of Str for damage, but I can't find it in the books.
Also, Dervish Dance, isn't that a Bard thing? o.O
It's both a feat, and a Bard archetype.
Which book please?
Which book please?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-a rchetypes/dervish-dancer
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-a rchetypes/dawnflower-dervish
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dervish-dance-combat
So, Ultimate Combat, Inner Sea Magic and The Inner Sea World Guide.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Which book please?
The agile weapon property is from Pathfinder Society Field Guide. Link
(Also, as the guy who wrote the Sylph section of the ARG, I think this thread is awesome!)
Ok, so Strength is actually a Dump Stat for a Sylph Barbarian. :P
Lowering it to 8 will do no real harm to the character. Similar with Charisma and Wisdom. Low skills means a decent Int might be desirable, but even that can be dumped a bit. So, you have as many as 16 dump points if you didn't mind low saves...
That makes a 16 Con and 20 Dex possible, though 14 Con and 18 Dex would allow a more balanced character at 20 points. Dumping just allows some fluctuation in those numbers or bonus skill points if desired...
Ok, gonna start working on a complete Rage Power list and Archetypes. :)
(Also, as the guy who wrote the Sylph section of the ARG, I think this thread is awesome!)
Awesome, that makes you one of my heroes. Very nicely done. ;)
I would really advise against dumping strength, a strength of 8 will harm the character, as you still need to carry your armour and weapon(s), plus you might not have anyone to carry your other gear. A light load for a character with a strength of 8 is only 26lbs or less. A chain shirt, the best light armour there is, is 25lbs...
I'd say around 11 is required for anyone wanting to wear armour and fight with a weapon. And the absolute minimum for a barbarian with a scimitar would be 9 (a scimitar plus a chain shirt is 29, capacity is 30).
Muleback Cords.
Really, to keep within the max dex bonus, the Armor will need to be light anyway.
8 strength is fine.
Yes, every 1st level character has 1000gp to spare, and every 2nd level character want to spend all their wealth on one item (depending on your GM's interpretation of certain traits, he might have something left over).
Besides those obvious flaws, not every character want to more or less permanently lose a magic item slot, especially not one that clashes with cloak of resistance.Strength 8 is not a good idea, but then again, not all groups bother with encumbrance.
Those will be factors I include into the guide Leisner, but as a race with a -2 Con in a Class where Con is the most important attribute, it's important to list all possible ways to maximize.
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My current recommended stats are:
- Epic Fantasy (25pts)
[list] - Str: 13 (3pts)
- Dex: 19 (13pts)
- Con 15 (13pts)
- Int: 12 (0pts)
- Wis 8 (-2pts)
- Cha: 8 (-2pts)
- Str: 10 (0pts)
- Dex: 19 (13pts)
- Con 15 (13pts)
- Int: 10 (-2pts)
- Wis 8 (-2pts)
- Cha: 8 (-2pts)
- Str: 11 (1pt)
- Dex: 18 (10 pts)
- Con 14 (10pts)
- Int: 10 (-2pts)
- Wis 8 (-2pts)
- Cha: 8 (-2pts)
- Str: 8 (-2pts)
- Dex: 16 (10 pts)
- Con 14 (10pts)
- Int: 8 (-4pts)
- Wis 8 (-2pts)
- Cha: 8 (-2pts)
[/list]
Identifying STR as a dump stat doesn't mean we dump it by default, just that in a game where numbers are tighter, it's an option. ;)
Hmmm.... Rage Powers are nearly finished. Basically though, most of the Rage Powers are Red or Orange with minor exceptions. Instead of commenting on each Rage Power, thinking of just posting the Rage Powers that might be actually useful...
The 3 Beast Totems are all interesting from what I read, not just because they are sweet mechanics, but because they're thematic for the raging-wolverine type that a Barbarian Sylph would be. Since I'll be recommending 3 Archtypes (Totem Warrior, Invulnerable Warrior, and Urban Warrior), the Increased Damage Reduction and Superstition Rage Powers seem like good choices as well.
Other than those (those are Blue in my book), the others would be stuff like Knockback, Knockdown, Spell Sunder, Lesser Elemental Rage, Elemental Rage, Eater of Magic, Witch Hunter, and Unexpected Strike.
While not necessarily "glass canons", I'm thinking to discourage some of the "blue" Rage Powers of the previous Guides, and state that the Sylph Barbarian should avoid Rage Powers that make it easier to be hit and take more damage.
Also thinking of identifying 2 basic combat styles IF their GM allows for non-prd material (Agile Weapons or Scimitar Based Dwervish Dancing). One being the weapons, the other being just Claws/Unarmed. The 2nd obviously does a lot less damage, but are a good alternative if certain weapons/feats aren't available.
Anyhoots, any Rage Powers you think I missed?
at 12th Come and Get Me would be amazing for such a barb. Your huge Dex will give a ton of attacks of opportunity each round with combat reflexes. Add in Dazing Assault.
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Which book please?
The agile weapon property is from Pathfinder Society Field Guide. Link
(Also, as the guy who wrote the Sylph section of the ARG, I think this thread is awesome!)
So can you get them to allow more Sylphs into Society play?
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I'd keep STR at 13 and lower DEX slightly to pay for it if needed. Then use a whip and take whip mastery feats. 15 ft reach is very nice when you are 15 feet above your target. Damage is not good, but if you get an agile whip and power attack it is passable, and you have great battlefield control. Then, if your GM allows it, the Pain Taster PRC will bring the damage up.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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So can you get them to allow more Sylphs into Society play?Which book please?
The agile weapon property is from Pathfinder Society Field Guide. Link
(Also, as the guy who wrote the Sylph section of the ARG, I think this thread is awesome!)
I wish I could, I'm looking for a sylph boon myself!
I'd keep STR at 13 and lower DEX slightly to pay for it if needed.
Why?
If you combine savage and urban archetypes you can really focus your on the STAT you need and start with a dex easily of 18.You will have attacks of opportunity up the wazoo and your 12th level rage power should be 'come and get me'.
Agreed. :P
And it counts as medium armor.
So then... no Wings of Flight. Kinda defeats one of the main reasons to play a Sylph Barbarian over any other race Barbarian...
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Power Attack. If you are a finesse build, it's a great way to add damage to your attacks, even if you are using an agile weapon or dervish dance.I'd keep STR at 13 and lower DEX slightly to pay for it if needed.Why?No point. If you're dervish dancing/finessing, you're using a 1-hander, so you get +2/-1 tradeoff. You may as well use Piranha Strike, which has no strength pre-req.
-Cross
Two things: Piranha Strike isn't available in all games, and even if it is, Dervish Dance doesn't work with it. Dervish Dance lets you treat a Scimitar as a one handed piercing weapon, but Piranha Strike requires a light weapon.
And it counts as medium armor.So then... no Wings of Flight. Kinda defeats one of the main reasons to play a Sylph Barbarian over any other race Barbarian...Err. I mean, that's flight 1/day. And it's not the important part of the armor. The important part is the colossal dex bonus you can apply while gaining full +9 base armor bonus and keeping medium armor.
I don't think it interferes overmuch with your concept. It's just a way to transition your enormous dex bonus into nigh-unhittability.
-Cross
You misunderstood me boss. Wings of Flight is a Feat that Sylphs get granting them at-will Fly. They can't use that with Medium Armour, and Wings of Flight is one of the reasons to play a Sylph Barbarian over some other Race's Barbarian. This isn't a general Barbarian Guide, it's intended purely for the Sylph race. Grounding a Sylph makes it not really a Sylph. :P
Ok, so Strength is actually a Dump Stat for a Sylph Barbarian. :P
Lowering it to 8 will do no real harm to the character. Similar with Charisma and Wisdom. Low skills means a decent Int might be desirable, but even that can be dumped a bit. So, you have as many as 16 dump points if you didn't mind low saves...
That makes a 16 Con and 20 Dex possible, though 14 Con and 18 Dex would allow a more balanced character at 20 points. Dumping just allows some fluctuation in those numbers or bonus skill points if desired...
Ok, gonna start working on a complete Rage Power list and Archetypes. :)
You know, if you are already working with a 'nonoptimized' race, why should you work trying to get optimized stats? Why must everyone try to get to 20? Why must every race with a dex bonus have to do weapon finesse. Dwarves only have a bonus to CON and they don't have to be CON based to be considered good fighters.
You can work with STR just fine using point buy. And really, for most barbarians, that is the most important stat. Your penalty to con might be a bit worrying, but here is a bit of a misconception: barbarians do not need that much CON. It only gets added once, and that is only for rage rounds. You end up getting much more from leveling up. So a 14 (after racials) should not be that bad. The bonuses to DEX and INT can be used to help bolster less important stats. So maybe dump int, put a couple of points into dex so you have 14 (after racials), and you will be fine. While I can't say much on CHA, you might not want to dump WIS though. You do not want to be the one failing your will save and charging at your teammates, now do you? (although....).
Overall, unless you go ranged, I am not sure I could advice a DEX build. The problem with it is that barbarians have no way of adding damage to each hit other than boosting STR. While a boost in DEX would do more damage with agile, you have to get an agile weapon first. What are you going to do before you scrounge up the money? What happens if someone uses sunder? Plus, it only applies to light weapons, rapier, and the elven curved sword. There is also dervish dance, but you have to one hand for that. Most of those are rather poor for damage unless you have a bonus to damage to each hit(sneak attack, favored enemy, smite, various fighter things). This is just the reality of the damage system in the game.
Lemeres that is because Dexterity in this case covers another important aspect of what it means to be a melee character. Normally Dexterity is the attribute of evading hits and aoes, the attribute of skills like stealth and fly. Yet it is rarely the source of hitting [u]and[/u] damage for a melee character that isn't using the Dervish Dance.
I could go on about what he could do with such a high strength but the point is: He had a low AC score because he was cheesed up to be this Tengu Monk who could deal only high damage. So although he had the potential to one shot the big bad he also was an easy target for any attack.
Which is why I have to say even I am envious of the Barbarian who can have a good ac and good damage without having to invest much into STR.
Yes, that is a problem with a monk, but does a barbarian experience the same problems? Sure, their AC may be low, but they are practically damage sponges, especially with the possibility DR starting from second level. Plus, armor is an actual option for them. Even medium armors.
And part of my problem with this is that it takes either the cost of a +2 weapon or two +1 weapons. It takes until level 4 or 5 for most characters to afford that, and that is using just about everything they own for that sole purpose. Compare that to the STR based barbarian, who are the kings of level 1 even if they only used a free club because of their strength damage that one shots just about everything by itself. Compare this with a dex barbarian with the suggested strength. Also note: you are not a spell caster or skill monkey. So what is your role in the party until you find that agile weapon
Sure, dervish dance is a bit more tenable, but that is still level 3 if he doesn't take a level of fighter. And that still runs into the problem that one handing a weapon tends to do less damage. I am particularly looking at how stat mods are added to damage with two handed weapons and the use of power attack.
Now, am I entirely against DEX characters? No, but this thread started from the idea that sylphs should not be relegated into certain classes just to be viable. Plus, I will admit: people are always looking for ways to get around needing strength. That does bug me, but that doesn't invalidate anything else I said.
You know, if you are already working with a 'nonoptimized' race, why should you work trying to get optimized stats? Why must everyone try to get to 20? Why must every race with a dex bonus have to do weapon finesse.
Two things... :P
1st, we're finding that Sylphs are optimized for Barbarians, if done right.
2nd, Because this is an optimization guide... it's kinda the whole point.
If a person does as you suggest, and gets that 14 Con, that's 10 points already. It not only, doesn't leave much for other stats, but doing Strength instead of Dex kills off one of the advantages of being a Sylph. If there wasn't an optimized way to use a racial bonus, then of course we'd be looking at Strength.