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Reading UMD I'm under the impression that the DC was 10 + spell level + (UMD result - 15)'s mod but hero labs isn't doing this. It's showing a chain lightning scroll at DC 19 no matter what I do.
Am I wrong or is hero lab?
You are wrong.
Let me put it this way: Say you roll 35 for you Emulate Ability Score roll. You now count as having Int 20. If your character has Int 20, what's the DC of the scroll?
I've always used my ability score if it was a scroll from my own class. Where is the min DC rule?
More to the point -- Hero Lab is evidently giving you the save DC that the target of the scroll spell has to make in order to save against that spell effect. That is a completely different matter from the DC of the skill check to use the scroll.
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Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell.
Staves are an exception to the rule. Treat the saving throw as if the wielder cast the spell, including caster level and all modifiers to save DCs.
Doesn't matter what your score is. Just what level the spell is.
You are wrong.
Let me put it this way: Say you roll 35 for you Emulate Ability Score roll. You now count as having Int 20. If your character has Int 20, what's the DC of the scroll?
The save DC of the scroll is unaffected by your emulated or actual ability score. Taking the example that started this thread -- chain lightning is a 6th level spell, so you need a casting stat of 16 to cast it. If you emulated a score of 20, you effectively have the necessary 16 and can cast that spell from a scroll. So if your adjusted roll had been 30 or less, your casting stat would have been too low to cast the spell.
If you naturally have a casting stat high enough to cast the spell, you do not have to make an Emulate Ability Score roll at all (although you may have to make UMD rolls for other things, such as faking it being on your class spell list).
Thanks!
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People are leading you astray. Step 1, read the section on scrolls. If you have the ability score, it is on your spell list, and is the appropriate kind (arcane v. divine) you can save yourself a whole lot of trouble.
This is super long, because the UMD skill is over a page all by itself.
UMD Skill reads:
You are skilled at activating magic items, even if you are not otherwise trained in their use.
Check: You can use this skill to read a spell or to activate a magic item. Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment. You make a Use Magic Device check each time you activate a device such as a wand. If you are using the check to emulate an alignment or some other quality in an ongoing manner, you need to make the relevant Use Magic Device check once per hour.
You must consciously choose which requirement to emulate. That is, you must know what you are trying to emulate when you make a Use Magic Device check for that purpose. The DCs for various tasks involving Use Magic Device checks are summarized on the table below.
Activate blindly DC 25
Decipher a written spell DC 25 + spell level
Use a scroll DC 20 + caster level
Use a wand DC 20
Emulate a class feature DC 20
Emulate an ability score See text
Emulate a race DC 25
Emulate an alignment DC 30
Activate Blindly: [omitted to save space]
Decipher a Written Spell: This usage works just like deciphering a written spell with the Spellcraft skill, except that the DC is 5 points higher. Deciphering a written spell requires 1 minute of concentration.
Emulate an Ability Score: To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells). Your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you’re emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15. If you already have a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don’t need to make this check.
Emulate an Alignment: [omitted to save space]
Emulate a Class Feature: [omitted to save space]
Emulate a Race: [omitted to save space]
Use a Scroll: Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll’s spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don’t have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check.
[Remainder omitted to save space]
Ok, that is the relevant text from the Core Rule Book, Page 108-109.
Moving on to scrolls!
To activate a scroll, a spellcaster must read the spell written on it. This involves several steps and conditions.
Decipher the Writing: The writing on a scroll must be deciphered before a character can use it or know exactly what spell it contains. This requires a read magic spell or a successful Spellcraft check (DC 20 + spell level). Deciphering a scroll is a full-round action. - Core Rule Book, Page 490.
....
Using a 6th level spell for the sake of a sample
So, Step 1: Read the scroll. DC = 20+Spell Level (6) + 5 = DC 31 UMD check to know what the scroll says.
Step 2: Emulate the Ability Score. DC is essentially 15 + Required ability Score.
The math on this comes out the same as your check -15 = Ability Score Emulated so long as all you want to know is success v. failure. You need a 16 to cast 6th level wizard spells, so DC = 15+16 = DC 31.
Step 3: Actually use the Scroll. DC = 20+ Caster Level Required.
You cant cast 6th level until you are a level 11 wizard. so the DC = 20+11 = 31.
So, for you to recite the scroll, you need to make three consecutive DC 31 UMD checks, assuming you do not need to emulate race, alignment, or class features, etc. Each and every emulation has its own check, and each must be made separately.
I believe he was asking about the Save DC for the spell cast from the scroll itself, not the DC to succeed at the various UMD checks.
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I believe he was asking about the Save DC for the spell cast from the scroll itself, not the DC to succeed at the various UMD checks.
Ah, in that case it is:
10 + Spell Level + Emulated Ability Score Mod.
It has a Minimum DC of 19 for level 6 scroll (10 + 6 + Emulated Ability Score Mod. (Minimum +3))
EDIT: Core Rule Book, Page 490-491:
Determine Effect: A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way. Assume the scroll spell’s caster level is the character who scribed the scroll, unless the scriber specifically desired otherwise.
Since they specifically call out the caster level for dealing with the scroll, and otherwise functions in the normal way: The Normal Way would be to treat the DC as described above.
Seriphim84 answer is right. You cant rise the ability score with a very good UMD check higher as the value needed to cast the spell.
That is not correct Akinra - see Seraphim's post above quoting the PRD - the only general exception to minimum DC's are staves.
'Tis confusing. Like in UMD you only fail on a roll of 1 if that result would fail. For scrolls you apparently fail on a 1 regardless. There definitely is a lot of back and forth between rules to figure out something that should be simple.
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The PRD quote from Seraphim is the general rule for all magic items producing spell effects. The scroll wording is specific to scrolls. Specific trumps general. Although, since the wording specifically excepts staves, I can see room for debate.
At my table, I would rule specific scroll rule > general magic item rule. As such I would determine DC as I stated above, YMMV.
Right. That's what makes sense between both the scrolls section of magic items as well as UMD. If you just needed to meet a certain minimum ability score why not just use the standard notation for DCs? "this has a DC of blah blah blah" The way it reads is that it can fluctuate wildly.
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Ok, I am honestly trying to figure out what specific you are looking at that says the DC for a scroll is based on the activator of the scroll. I can't find anything that says that. The best I can find is:
"Emulate an Ability Score: To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells). Your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you're emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15. If you already have a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don't need to make this check."
All this says is you can activate a scroll even if you don't have a high enough wisdom (cleric) to do so normally. It doesn't say anything about the Spell DC.
A spells DC is 10 + spell level + ability mod. UMD sets your ability SCORE based on your UMD result for a particular casting of a scroll. The description under scrolls is that for everything other than caster level casting a spell from a scroll is the same as normally casting a spell. There is the specific text about magic items in general but then there's specific text about scrolls that essentially is different. If it's the same as me casting that spell and UMD let's me adjust that score based on a skill check then, ergo, the DC is adjusted based on that check.
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OK, putting aside Use Magic device for a second because if you are right then it works and if you aren't then it doesn't matter, lets look at a few things.
First under scrolls:
"Determine Effect: A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way."
This is the hinge matter, the claim I am understanding is that this means that anything besides caster level is set by the user of the scroll.
But Under Magic Items we have:
"Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell."
This statement theoretically conflicts with the first. Which is right? well:
Under Magic:
"Subjects, Effects, and Areas
If the spell affects creatures directly, the result travels with the subjects for the spell's duration. If the spell creates an effect, the effect lasts for the duration. The effect might move or remain still. Such an effect can be destroyed prior to when its duration ends. If the spell affects an area, then the spell stays with that area for its duration."
Here is were spell effects are defined. This may be clarified under the spell description but note that DCs are not part of the effect of the spell. If the scroll effects are the same as the spell then anything listed here will happen in the same way.
So the section being quoted then has nothing to do with DCs but only spell effects, subjects and areas.
That makes sense.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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To add more evidence that scrolls use the basic magic item DC, the scrollmaster wizard archetype's 10th level ability is that they can use theier own Int mod when casting scrolls (as well as their caster level and feats, but Int mod is specifically mentioned).
Improved Scroll Casting (Su): At 10th level, the scrollmaster can cast a wizard spell from a scroll and use his own Intelligence score and relevant feats to set the DC for the spell, and can use his own caster level if it is higher than that of the scroll (similar to a caster using a staff). The scrollmaster must have already deciphered the writing on the scroll to use this ability. This ability replaces the 10th-level wizard bonus feat.
I looked at that and the cyphermage but didn't find them compelling arguments. Those abilities let you use your OWN casting ability score regardless of what the actual required ability was. UMD let's you fake OTHER casting ability scores to match what the creator used. If you were a summoner casting a scroll made by a sorcerer you likely wouldn't have to roll UMD to get fake a high charisma score as you already have it and is why I always had used my own ability score when casting scrolls from my own class but of spells I either did not know or have prepped.
It's relevant because the question ultimately is "When casting from a scroll, do you get to use your ability modifier or is it ability modifier necessary to make the scroll as created". If the answer to that question is "Use the ability modifier necessary to make the scroll as created" (typically the minimum necessary to cast the spell), then UMD simply gives you a threshold to beat. If the answer is "Use your ability modifier" (i.e., like a Staff), the the UMD not only gives you a threshold to beat, but an actual method to figure out the score to be used.
However, considering the language quoted by ryric, it'd have to be the former, not the latter. If it were the latter, the ability granted to a scrollmaster would be useless, since it would add nothing new.
Using your own ability score is useless? The main stat your entire build is likely geared for, literally, rather than the random outcome of a D20 roll? That's huge even if UMD work like I thought in my OP. I would rather have the steady usage of my own stat regardless of the scroll's any day rather than having roll and hopefully get lucky or be forced to divert resources into UMD in the form of feats, traits, skill ranks, etc. The cyphermage and the like still outclass even a very high UMD character if for nothing else than consistency they can use scrolls at higher caster levels and DCs.
The text from UMD that made it gray to me was the fact that UMD sets your score for the usage rather than simply declaring a DC to beat like most other skills do, even ones with a fluctuating DC. Why set the score if all you need is a set DC to either cast or not cast if not to somehow reward a player for a high roll? It's confusing and doesn't follow common patterns elsewhere in the skills for DCs. Rolling high has several fringe benefits throughout the system and it's reasonable that reading the UMD description alludes to one of those places that could reward a high result.
The DC for a scroll is set when the scroll is made, and the scroll always uses the lowest DC possible. Staves allow you to use your ability score because the DC is not set on a staff. They also allow you to apply any feats you have.
That is why many of the optimizers suggest that you don't buy scrolls that rely on saves, such as fireball. A spell such as fog cloud which has no save would be a better buy.
I was not aware of such advice but it was a very quick realization after this thread.
Using your own ability score is useless? The main stat your entire build is likely geared for, literally, rather than the random outcome of a D20 roll? That's huge even if UMD work like I thought in my OP. I would rather have the steady usage of my own stat regardless of the scroll's any day rather than having roll and hopefully get lucky or be forced to divert resources into UMD in the form of feats, traits, skill ranks, etc. The cyphermage and the like still outclass even a very high UMD character if for nothing else than consistency they can use scrolls at higher caster levels and DCs.
The text from UMD that made it gray to me was the fact that UMD sets your score for the usage rather than simply declaring a DC to beat like most other skills do, even ones with a fluctuating DC. Why set the score if all you need is a set DC to either cast or not cast if not to somehow reward a player for a high roll? It's confusing and doesn't follow common patterns elsewhere in the skills for DCs. Rolling high has several fringe benefits throughout the system and it's reasonable that reading the UMD description alludes to one of those places that could reward a high result.
Getting a class feature after 10 levels would be useless if the base item allowed you to do that anyway. So, if it were true that Scrolls allowed a person to use their own ability modifier to up the relevant Save DC, this class feature would be essentially worthless because the point of it is to allow the character to use his/her own ability score modifier when casting spells from a scroll.
That's what I was referring to as being (hypothetically) useless.
At 10th level, my summoner only had a +23 UMD and had to use aspect to get that to +31. Before then, he could only emulate ability scores of 9 to 28 and that was all due to chance since you CAN'T take 10 on UMD. Being able to guaranteed use an ability score of 24 or 26 every freaking time is huge and removes an entire way to fail at using the scroll altogether. I fail to see it as worthless even at level 10 compared to someone who's been investing in UMD. Even still with aspect I can emulate scores of 17 to 36 which averages around 26. I had to use my class ability to AVERAGE what another class ability gets GUARANTEED at the same level. I see no balance or fairness issues there were that the case.
A scrollmaster wizard can cast those spells from scrolls regardless, so UMD never enters into it. You're mixing two scenarios that needn't be mixed. The scrollmaster wizard isn't using UMD to cast from scrolls.
UMD honestly isn't even relevant to the question that matters here. The question that matters is whether you use your own ability modifier to set the Save DC when casting a spell from a scroll. That answer is no, whether via UMD or otherwise.
My point regarding the scrollmaster ability at level 10 is, what benefit is it to the scrollmaster to be given an ability whereby one can apply one's own ability score to the Save DC for casting spells from scrolls if any character can do that anyway? There isn't any, which is why the existence of that ability is pretty strong support for the idea that ordinarily you can't apply your own ability modifier when casting from scrolls.
Obviously, there are other benefits to the class ability as well, but those aren't relevant here.
Not all scrolls are created equal. He would absolutely need UMD for cleric spells, druid spells, etc.
I'm not refuting the rule. Never have. I wasn't aware of it before the thread. What's your point?
What's the point of a rogue's trapfinding ability when it's probably the most shared class ability out there? Multiple classes get sneak attack, multiple classes get bonuses versus certain enemy types and so on. Class abilities get shuffled in different combinations or are often easily duplicated through magic items all the freaking time.
Easily duplicating a class' abilities with magical items or other class' abilities is not the same as "every other character can already do this anyway".
I recognize that a scrollmaster wizard would still need UMD for scrolls not on his/her spell list.
I've simply been trying to explain to you why that particular class feature is a pretty clear indication of the base rule since your response when it was posted was "I looked at that and the cyphermage but didn't find them compelling arguments."
That's it. UMD and using scrolls in general don't function differently in regards to what the spell's Save DC is. So whether you use UMD or class ability to cast from a scroll is irrelevant.
The base rule is that you ordinarily don't use the user's ability modifier (whether actual or emulated via UMD) when casting from a scroll. The fact that Scrollmaster specifically gives you the ability (at level 10) to use your own ability modifier when casting from a scroll is a compelling argument that the base rule exists (the "exception that proves the rules", so to speak).
That is literally the only point I have been trying to make. I'm not sure why there's push back on that.
And I'm saying it makes zero logical sense to say that just because there is a certain class ability that let's you use your own ability score for ALL scrolls that someone without that ability always uses the minimum DC for scrolls. Just knowing that this guy can use his own score to calc the DC all I would think is "oh, others must use different scores to calc the DC" instead of assuming the minimum DC was how it worked ESPECIALLY if I then check the UMD skill. UMD actually enforces this thinking with the wording in the Emulating an Ability Score feature. "Oh, this let's me emulate the score, sweet" and then THAT is what I use to calc the DC is a logical progression of thought going from one to the other.
Since UMD appears to be a fairly thorough resource on what it takes to use a scroll if the spell is not on your class list I would not go elsewhere searching for more rules on scrolls. There isn't even a reference for "see the magic item chapter page XXX for rules on DCs." If I did do that then learning any rule would not be complete until I reviewed every section to see if it got modified somehow and that's such an inefficient use of time I wouldn't even bother trying to learn the game in general. The sections that describe the rules would themselves not actually be authoritative on the rules they prescribe.
This is the case with scrolls, apparently. I still don't agree with it but it is what it is. You have one section telling you what you need to do to use a scroll. Then, there are other sections that tell you what you need to also use a scroll. Neither of them reference the other. The rules for scrolls are not located in a concise location. So, to say because of one class' particular feature that this rule is just a logical conclusion of what happens in that feature's absence makes no sense ESPECIALLY given the wording in the UMD skill.
That's what I'm saying.
I may post more later when I'm not at work, but suffice to say I disagree with your argument regarding the train of logic. You can say you don't find it determinative or ultimately convincing, but you cannot say it makes zero logical sense. This is nearly a quintessential example of the adage "the exception that proves the rule."
As to the rest regarding the structure of rules, where in the UMD section does it say at all how one determines the Save to overcome when one casts a spell? Wouldn't you then be obligated to refer to the Magic Items section of the rules, anyway? One cannot read sections of the rules in a vacuum. They are intended to be read together. If the rules needed to mention "see the magic item chapter page XXX for rules on DCs" for UMD, they would need to say that literally every time anything regarding magical items was mentioned. That's an awfully grand waste of space.
The name of the skill is Use Magic Device, and it's clearly and explicitly intended for use when one ordinarily ought not be able to use said devices. If that does not implicate the importance of understanding the basic rules of how those magic devices work for people who ordinarily can use them, I don't know what else to tell you.
And I'm saying it makes zero logical sense to say that just because there is a certain class ability that let's you use your own ability score for ALL scrolls that someone without that ability always uses the minimum DC for scrolls.
I think I see what you're trying to say here - you mean that there is a benefit to being able to use your Intelligence score for a cleric or druid scroll, instead of Wisdom.
However, the Cyphermage ability doesn't allow Int with All scrolls, only Wizard scrolls, which are always Intelligence already. Thus no benefit at all if you could already use your own Int score for wizard scrolls.
HangarFlying: There is no specific rule on this (other than for staves, and cyphermages and such). The scroll description text is just saying the spell effects happen as normal, nothing else special. Among other things that means you can choose the targets, choose energy types for things like resist energy, etc. Nothing to contradict the DC rules for magic items.
As a player getting up to speed on the system I'm going to read the skills chapter way before the magic items chapter and probably start with the getting started followed by the race then classes chapters. The saves for spells are defined in every spellcasting class and defined (10+SL+Ability Mod). Then I look at UMD and it says I can emulated the ability score which determines the mod. How would it not factor into the DC having not read the magic items section on scrolls and noting one particular sentence?
I'M NOT DISAGREEING WITH THE DAMNED RULE JESUS F~~*. I'm saying it makes no sense given UMD's wording. I'm about to get belligerent because I don't know how much more I can say those two things.
I think I see what you're trying to say here - you mean that there is a benefit to being able to use your Intelligence score for a cleric or druid scroll, instead of Wisdom.
However, the Cyphermage ability doesn't allow Int with All scrolls, only Wizard scrolls, which are always Intelligence already. Thus no benefit at all if you could already use your own Int score for wizard scrolls.
You're wrong.
Insightful Scroll (Su): As a swift action, a cyphermage can alter a spell he’s casting from a scroll to use his own spellcasting ability score (Intelligence for wizards, and so on) and relevant feats to set the DC for the spell. He can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 1/3 his cyphermage level (minimum 1).
It does not only apply to wizard scrolls. It works on any spell in a scroll and ties it to your casting score regardless of what class that is. He can go into cyphermage from cleric and use wisdom, be a sorc and use charisma, etc.
I get you Buri - the UMD text hasn't really changed since 3.0. The text about emulating an ability score was written to be very generic, in case someone devised a magic item that required (for example) an 18 Charisma to use.
Sadly, no one has, so the text sounds very odd.
I get you Buri - the UMD text hasn't really changed since 3.0. The text about emulating an ability score was written to be very generic, in case someone devised a magic item that required (for example) an 18 Charisma to use.
Sadly, no one has, so the text sounds very odd.
Actually, they have. Kind of. The Maul of the Titans (Core Rulebook; not the mattock, the one below it) requires an 18 Strength to wield properly. You can still use it without that strength, you just take a penalty.
And of course scrolls, which have a required minimum ability score to use.
That's... just kinda odd :) Thanks Jeraa!
Well, in my defense I never said your initial reading of the rule was patently unreasonable. I understand why you read it that way. It's an understandable mistake. I'm just explaining the example you pushed back against. The rule isn't illogical. It follows directly from the rest of the magic item rules.
At 10th level, the scrollmaster can cast a Wizard spell from a scroll and use his own Intelligence score and relevant feats to set the DC for the spell, and can use his own caster level if it is higher than that of the scroll (similar to a caster using a staff ). The scrollmaster must have already deciphered the writing on the scroll to use this ability.
Insightful Scroll (Su): As a swift action, a cyphermage can alter a spell he’s casting from a scroll to use his own spellcasting ability score (Intelligence for wizards, and so on) and relevant feats to set the DC for the spell. He can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 1/3 his cyphermage level (minimum 1).
Scrollmaster is only for wizards and only applies to wizard scrolls. Cyphermage is for wizards, sorcerers, bards, witches, summoners, and magi and applies to any scroll.