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Article with links to others here. Personally, I'd like to know what I can do beside sign a petition.
If you think I'm being alarmist or ill-informed then check out the flag of the Golden Dawn (no relation to the other Golden Dawn).
Greece has gotten so crazy that they arrested two video game developers for espionage, relevant in showing that this isn't an isolated incident.
I'd like to say I'm surprised but I've heard all about how absolutely nuts and fascist Greece is from one of my former co-workers who was born there.
They are pretty much this generations version of the National Socialist Party and they're just going to get worse.
I've heard of these golden dawn nutcases. Bigoted and violent. They bring shame on the whole country.
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They name this operation after a god who turned into a swan to mate with a woman, yet they have problems with a man dressing as a woman...
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Article with links to others here. Personally, I'd like to know what I can do beside sign a petition.
If you think I'm being alarmist or ill-informed then check out the flag of the Golden Dawn (no relation to the other Golden Dawn).
Greece has gotten so crazy that they arrested two video game developers for espionage, relevant in showing that this isn't an isolated incident.
The Golden Dawn are certainly fascist scumbag murderers, and I hope the KKE kicks their ass, but, from what I'm reading in this link, it was the government who interred transsexuals?
Because, although the Golden Dawn are growing exponentially, I thought the New Democrats were still in power.
Greeks also have a great anarchist movement
Article with links to others here. Personally, I'd like to know what I can do beside sign a petition.
If you think I'm being alarmist or ill-informed then check out the flag of the Golden Dawn (no relation to the other Golden Dawn).
Greece has gotten so crazy that they arrested two video game developers for espionage, relevant in showing that this isn't an isolated incident.
The Golden Dawn are certainly fascist scumbag murderers, and I hope the KKE kicks their ass, but, from what I'm reading in this link, it was the government who interred transsexuals?
Because, although the Golden Dawn are growing exponentially, I thought the New Democrats were still in power.
Yup.
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Zeus would not be the ideal representative of the 'sanctity of marriage'.
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Since the early 2000s, Greece has become the major gateway into the European Union for undocumented migrants and asylum seekers from Asia and Africa. Years of mismanaged migration and asylum policies and, more recently, the deep economic crisis, have changed the demographics of the capital city. The center of Athens, in particular, has a large population of foreigners living in extreme poverty, occupying abandoned buildings, town squares, and parks. Concerns about rising crime and urban degradation have become a dominant feature of everyday conversations as well as political discourse.
Greece has a right to control irregular immigration and a duty to improve security on the streets for everyone. However, the breadth and intensity of immigration sweeps in the context of Operation Xenios Zeus raise serious concerns about whether the means to achieve those legitimate aims are necessary and proportionate, Human Rights Watch said.
So, we have a massively weakened government in Greece because of the economic crisis.
We have a rise in crime at the same time as a rise in immigration.
This emboldens those of the police who hold unpleasant attitudes.
This all mixes in with a massive demographic change produced by weak border controls.
That is pretty horrible.
However, AlgaeNymph appears to have misled in their thread title. Transfolk were being detained 'on suspicion of prostitution' and then released after a few hours.
This is not the same thing as being sent to detention centres. And it is probably inaccurate to call a migration detention centre a 'concentration camp'.
I am kind of surprised by the headline. It seems like the people who are really suffering are the immigrants (plus some drug addicts) who are being sent to these detention centres.
Police harassment of transfolk is a bad scene but surely we shouldn't be ignoring the immigrants and drug addicts. Should we?
People don't appreciate your advice when they're on their kness and they can feel your heel pressing into their windpipe.
Madness. This is one of the things the EU is meant to be stopping, but since there aren't enough trans people with bloody huge wads of cash I doubt they'll do much beyond saber rattling.
Unfortunately, Greece is a mess thanks to this damned recession, and just like everywhere else the people who are paying for it aren't the people who made the mess. Just like in 30's Germany the Golden Dawn are pointing at anyone different, and saying, 'If they were like you bad things wouldn't happen to us.' And desperate people with a little bigotry already in them love to jump at something they can actually do to help, to take there situation back into there hands.
The best way to stop it would be to relieve the pressure on Greece - people with something to loose are more sensible than desperate ones - but the EU has got it's head shoved into the sand about the recession. They think more and more cuts will eventually solve the problem. They might also need to be taken to court a few times.
This world of ours blows my f~#@ing mind.
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I am not surprised.
In France, the year of presidential election (2012) saw a huge increase in xenophobic behaviours and political stances.
In 2013, the topic of same-sex marriage quickly turned ugly with a rise in homophobia (both in speeches and aggressions).
I was amazed that representatives of the french LGBT community seemed honestly surprised by the latter after witnessing the former. Because it was almost exactly the same people with the same rage and hatred targeting first the immigrants and second the LGBTs.
For workers mobilizations to smash fascism and defend all of the oppressed!
Down with the Capitalist EU!
For a Workers Europe!
Vive le Galt!
Also, this thread makes me wonder what Citizen Aretas is up to.
The US gets paranoid due to some people who could have been more gruntled and flew into a building or two. Suddenly, security is not job one, but the only job. The US economy nosedives. But hey... They got the EU to surrender data on every economic transaction in the european banks. Via laws signed into place by the american president shrubbery, these data can then be sold by the intelligence agencies to american companies... Who suddenly get complete economic data on their european competitors.
Yeah. The economic crisis stinks. Any idea what caused it... And made it explode now? Because I never heard a likely explanation for that. I just observe that the only thing that seems to have budget is insane snooping and stupid warfare... By the US.
Yeah. The economic crisis stinks. Any idea what caused it... And made it explode now? Because I never heard a likely explanation for that. I just observe that the only thing that seems to have budget is insane snooping and stupid warfare... By the US.
I like this video, although it's a little Anglo-centered and it leaves out quite a bit.
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I happen to be a Greek living in the US for the last 5 years doing my PhD.
The Golden Dawn party is indeed a bunch of neo-Nazi violent lunatics and a rather dangerous one at that.
As others mentioned before, most of the support they have in the wider populace (estimated at around 10% of the popular vote in recent polls) comes from the fact that Greece is suffering through the worst financial and social crisis for the country since WW2 and the civil war.
Before that Golden Dawn was a merely a distasteful joke getting less than 0.1% of the votes in elections. Greeks did not turn into fascists overnight. Most of the people who appear as "supporters" are misguided fools led by fear and despair and the desire to "punish" the traditional political parties seen as responsible for the deplorable state of the country. The instant gratification methods of those violent neo-Nazi goons copied straight from the Nazi handbook take advantage of all that.
The "Xenios Zeus" operation (I still wonder who the heck came up with that particular name) is supposed to help address the huge illegal immigration problem that the country is facing and its correlates. Is it a great idea? No it is not, again for many of the reasons that people have already mentioned (go carefully through the HRW link that GeraintElberion provided).
Is it perhaps the lesser of two evils? Might be... And I explain myself: Unless the scared and angry greek population sees the official state as doing something drastic about the illegal immigration issue there might be a real danger of more and more people flocking to the Golden Dawn (since they will be seen as the only ones doing something). If this keeps up it might not be long before the Golden Dawn has enough support to challenge the traditional political parties for the position of power. That will lead to either of two possibilities. A neo-Nazi government in Greece or another civil war. To both options as a Greek and as a democratic minded fellow, I say thanks but no thanks!!! Seriously. And if people think things are bad for immigrants in Greece now (and they are) wait until one of the two aforementioned possibilities comes to pass...
Additionally, Greece has certain obligations regarding illegal immigration under the Dublin III treaty. Those obligations make things rather hairy for Greece, Italy, Spain, Malta and other countries at EU borders. Until recently (last couple of years) all of those countries received very little EU help to deal with the immigration issues. Now that they do things are slowly getting better (stress on slowly...) but it will be a while before things are truly under control if ever. One can look for the reports of the EU people (FRONTEX force) stationed at the Greek borders and working with Greek forces on addressing the issues. The situation is often truly hopeless and the numbers of illegal immigrants huge. If the US thinks they have an illegal immigration problem they should take a look at southern EU countries.
Now, all of the above said, a significant percentage of the greek police were never particularly known for their professionalism. The fact that the security forces were never thoroughly cleansed of extreme right-wing people after the fall of the military junta in 1974, coupled with the fact that like minded individuals seem to have a tendency to flock to the armed and law enforcement forces (in every part of the world I think) do not make things any better.
I am absolutely certain that many reports of police brutality, unprofessional, racist or fascist behavior are true beyond question. These cases are simply horrible and unacceptable and something needs to be done quickly about that.
With regards to the video games developers arrested for espionage, this is an unfortunate incident, however photographing of military installations is strictly prohibited and does carry that charge (the same in several other countries). The installations in question are on an Aegean island right next to Turkey and you might understand that they are probably considered particularly important. I can only immagine if someone is caught taking detailed photographs of important US military or security facilities. The incident has absolutely nothing to do with racism/fascism or a police state.
With all due respect, the title of the thread is indeed misleading. We can talk about whether illegal immigrant detention camps are OK or necessary. I think they are generally a horrible idea.
But referring to a police operation detaining suspects for prostitution for a few hours (regardless of their gender or sexual orientation) as "Greek fascists put transfolk in concentration camps" is misleading and reduces any attempt to inform and educate people about real problems to tabloid-quality sensationalized fear-mongering.
It is bad enough that racists and fascists continually use misinformation and fear-mongering to further their own ends. If we hope to oppose them we cannot use similar means even unintentionally (I do not believe that there was any intention to misinform, merely indignation and outrage at what might be going on).
Just my two cents. Sorry for the long post. :)
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This honestly scares me. It reminds me way too much of WWII, and that was an 11 on the horrible scale. Our world is just a ticking time bomb, isn't it?
Except that modern days Greece is by no means 1930's Germany, and that currently most power holders in the world are not half crazed ideologists like they used to be back than. No Red Party in Russia, and most of Europe is very calm. Most of the crazy these days is focused in the poorer countries, such as the Islamic world and Africa.
Also, today's communications systems are FAR better than what we had back then.Bottom line, circumstances are too different. If things start getting considerably more crazy in Greece, you can bet backlash would come, and quickly. Plus, now that we have nuclear weapons held by a dozen different armies, what could possibly go wrong?
I happen to be a Greek living in the US for the last 5 years doing my PhD.
The Golden Dawn party is indeed a bunch of neo-Nazi violent lunatics and a rather dangerous one at that.
As others mentioned before, most of the support they have in the wider populace (estimated at around 10% of the popular vote in recent polls) comes from the fact that Greece is suffering through the worst financial and social crisis for the country since WW2 and the civil war.
Before that Golden Dawn was a merely a distasteful joke getting less than 0.1% of the votes in elections. Greeks did not turn into fascists overnight. Most of the people who appear as "supporters" are misguided fools led by fear and despair and the desire to "punish" the traditional political parties seen as responsible for the deplorable state of the country. The instant gratification methods of those violent neo-Nazi goons copied straight from the Nazi handbook take advantage of all that.
The "Xenios Zeus" operation (I still wonder who the heck came up with that particular name) is supposed to help address the huge illegal immigration problem that the country is facing and its correlates. Is it a great idea? No it is not, again for many of the reasons that people have already mentioned (go carefully through the HRW link that GeraintElberion provided).
Is it perhaps the lesser of two evils? Might be... And I explain myself: Unless the scared and angry greek population sees the official state as doing something drastic about the illegal immigration issue there might be a real danger of more and more people flocking to the Golden Dawn (since they will be seen as the only ones doing something). If this keeps up it might not be long before the Golden Dawn has enough support to challenge the traditional political parties for the position of power. That will lead to either of two possibilities. A neo-Nazi government in Greece or another civil war. To both options as a Greek and as a democratic minded fellow, I say thanks but no thanks!!! Seriously....
quite the contrary thank you for your thoughts and perspective.
This honestly scares me. It reminds me way too much of WWII, and that was an 11 on the horrible scale. Our world is just a ticking time bomb, isn't it?Except that modern days Greece is by no means 1930's Germany, and that currently most power holders in the world are not half crazed ideologists like they used to be back than. No Red Party in Russia, and most of Europe is very calm. Most of the crazy these days is focused in the poorer countries, such as the Islamic world and Africa.
Also, today's communications systems are FAR better than what we had back then.Bottom line, circumstances are too different. If things start getting considerably more crazy in Greece, you can bet backlash would come, and quickly. Plus, now that we have nuclear weapons held by a dozen different armies, what could possibly go wrong?
I don't think a European war, similar to WWII is on the verge of happening, but this isn't heartening in regards to regional stability.
Syria is in a civil war. Turkey doesn't seem like it's on the verge, but Erdogan seems like the kind of guy who would escalate things rather than seek a peaceful resolution. If (and it's a fairly big 'if' at the moment) Turkey were to enter a civil war as well right now, that could easily cascade into a conflict in Greece.
It wouldn't be a state vs state conflict like WWII, but it could be pretty devastating.
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This honestly scares me. It reminds me way too much of WWII, and that was an 11 on the horrible scale. Our world is just a ticking time bomb, isn't it?Except that modern days Greece is by no means 1930's Germany, and that currently most power holders in the world are not half crazed ideologists like they used to be back than. No Red Party in Russia, and most of Europe is very calm. Most of the crazy these days is focused in the poorer countries, such as the Islamic world and Africa.
Also, today's communications systems are FAR better than what we had back then.Bottom line, circumstances are too different. If things start getting considerably more crazy in Greece, you can bet backlash would come, and quickly. Plus, now that we have nuclear weapons held by a dozen different armies, what could possibly go wrong?
My opinion will probably rub people the wrong way, but I believe the main difference is that we have, so far, avoided global economical collapse. And that is thanks to all the cash the governments poured into the financial and banking companies to keep the financial market afloat.
Mind you, it could have been done in a better and smarter way, but people worldwide are not (yet ?) in the living nightmare that was post-1929 around the world (with the then exception of the USSR of course).
Doing a little reading on the Smoot-Hawley act is always a fun exercise in what previous generations did not teach us about macroeconomics.
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This honestly scares me. It reminds me way too much of WWII, and that was an 11 on the horrible scale. Our world is just a ticking time bomb, isn't it?Except that modern days Greece is by no means 1930's Germany, and that currently most power holders in the world are not half crazed ideologists like they used to be back than. No Red Party in Russia, and most of Europe is very calm. Most of the crazy these days is focused in the poorer countries, such as the Islamic world and Africa.
Also, today's communications systems are FAR better than what we had back then.Bottom line, circumstances are too different. If things start getting considerably more crazy in Greece, you can bet backlash would come, and quickly. Plus, now that we have nuclear weapons held by a dozen different armies, what could possibly go wrong?
I don't think a European war, similar to WWII is on the verge of happening, but this isn't heartening in regards to regional stability.
Syria is in a civil war. Turkey doesn't seem like it's on the verge, but Erdogan seems like the kind of guy who would escalate things rather than seek a peaceful resolution. If (and it's a fairly big 'if' at the moment) Turkey were to enter a civil war as well right now, that could easily cascade into a conflict in Greece.
It wouldn't be a state vs state conflict like WWII, but it could be pretty devastating.
Erdogan is a living example of what happens if people are in power for too long.
All countries should have term limits on their leaders. Erdogan should already have gone.
Comrades, it is time for capitalism's term limit to end!!
Vive le Galt!
Comrades, it is time for capitalism's term limit to end!!
Vive le Galt!
Ah Comrade lets speak truth...Captialism has been dead for 50 years now. The Socialist Elist dogs bring it out like Frankenstein's Monster to scare the people from actualy thinking and keep on voting for bread & circuses. Or well Socialist need somebody to rob from so they sometimes allow it back in very limited forms to enrich the middle class so they can take their stuff again.
;)
I keep forgetting that there are people who actually believe the lies and fairy tales that the far right and austrian/chicago school propagandists tell about 'free markets', and 'laissez faire capitalism' being anything other than a means to enrich their masters while keeping as many other people as poor and powerless as possible.
Here's a tiny tidbit of truth for you John.
Fifty years ago the US economy was far more tightly controlled and regulated then it is now. Anyone says otherwise is ignorant or lying.
Here is some more 'truth' for you...
;) = means a wink...as in I am not totaly serious...
Here is another 'truth'...everything about politics(right, left, middle) is a means to enrich their masters(or themselves) by keeping people as poor and powerless as possible.
I find you funny though you running dog for the socialist elite. ;)
All I know is that here in the United States, we've already got the Stasi, we might as well get the health care and jobs.
For international proletarian socialist revolution!
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This honestly scares me. It reminds me way too much of WWII, and that was an 11 on the horrible scale. Our world is just a ticking time bomb, isn't it?Except that modern days Greece is by no means 1930's Germany, and that currently most power holders in the world are not half crazed ideologists like they used to be back than. No Red Party in Russia, and most of Europe is very calm. Most of the crazy these days is focused in the poorer countries, such as the Islamic world and Africa.
Also, today's communications systems are FAR better than what we had back then.Bottom line, circumstances are too different. If things start getting considerably more crazy in Greece, you can bet backlash would come, and quickly. Plus, now that we have nuclear weapons held by a dozen different armies, what could possibly go wrong?
I don't think a European war, similar to WWII is on the verge of happening, but this isn't heartening in regards to regional stability.
Syria is in a civil war. Turkey doesn't seem like it's on the verge, but Erdogan seems like the kind of guy who would escalate things rather than seek a peaceful resolution. If (and it's a fairly big 'if' at the moment) Turkey were to enter a civil war as well right now, that could easily cascade into a conflict in Greece.
It wouldn't be a state vs state conflict like WWII, but it could be pretty devastating.
Greece is uncomfortably close to home for some of the major powers in the western world today. Things there would not be allowed to go anywhere near what's going on in Syria, that's for certain, plus I'm still not convinced the Greek have that level of violence in them.
The way society started wolfing down it's weakest members there is terrifying, and I really hope it doesn't get worse before it gets better, but civil war is such a completely different scale of an event than what we see right now that I feel some of the worry people are expressing is premature.
The same, by the way, is true in Turkey. The kind of trouble they have there is with a corrupt government, and a police force that is maybe a bit overly violent and tends to be dragged into the limbo when crowds of a certain size are involved. That's nothing even close to war material.
Notice I'm kind of agreeing with you there. I even said "Turkey doesn't seem like it's on the verge," I'm merely pointing out potential problems and situations that could exacerbate worsening situations and contribute to a regional melt down.
Cuba is uncomfortably close to the US, we were never able to 'solve' that problem.
Yugoslavia was closer to Europe than Greece is, and the powers that be dithered about quite a bit on that.
Turkey has other problems as well, dealing with Syrian refugees, Kurdish relations. Recently the Turkish stock market took a dive and their currency is losing value. It's not an insurmountable issue, but if their economy gets significantly worse it'll only magnify everything else that is going on.
Now Egypt continues sit at a simmering turmoil state. It could push Sunni leaders into focusing their efforts on armed take-over (more generally as a tactic, not just Egypt), funding and arming Sunni rebels much as they're doing in Syria.
Again, I'm not predicting "this will all happen". I'm merely pointing out factors that could contribute to it. The east side of the Mediterranean could become lined with countries who's populations are seeking refuge, a significant number of which would try to reach Greece. The ones already arriving are straining the country significantly.
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Notice I'm kind of agreeing with you there. I even said "Turkey doesn't seem like it's on the verge," I'm merely pointing out potential problems and situations that could exacerbate worsening situations and contribute to a regional melt down.
Cuba is uncomfortably close to the US, we were never able to 'solve' that problem.
Yugoslavia was closer to Europe than Greece is, and the powers that be dithered about quite a bit on that.
Turkey has other problems as well, dealing with Syrian refugees, Kurdish relations. Recently the Turkish stock market took a dive and their currency is losing value. It's not an insurmountable issue, but if their economy gets significantly worse it'll only magnify everything else that is going on.
Now Egypt continues sit at a simmering turmoil state. It could push Sunni leaders into focusing their efforts on armed take-over (more generally as a tactic, not just Egypt), funding and arming Sunni rebels much as they're doing in Syria.
Again, I'm not predicting "this will all happen". I'm merely pointing out factors that could contribute to it. The east side of the Mediterranean could become lined with countries who's populations are seeking refuge, a significant number of which would try to reach Greece. The ones already arriving are straining the country significantly.
Solid observations all (if a bit pessimistic), and thank you for the clarification. It seems that you have created a compilation of "worst case scenarios" where everything goes horribly wrong everywhere, and you are correct in saying most of these will never happen. Good to be aware of the dangers I suppose.
With all due respect, the title of the thread is indeed misleading. We can talk about whether illegal immigrant detention camps are OK or necessary. I think they are generally a horrible idea.
But referring to a police operation detaining suspects for prostitution for a few hours (regardless of their gender or sexual orientation) as "Greek fascists put transfolk in concentration camps" is misleading and reduces any attempt to inform and educate people about real problems to tabloid-quality sensationalized fear-mongering.
It is bad enough that racists and fascists continually use misinformation and fear-mongering to further their own ends. If we hope to oppose them we cannot use similar means even unintentionally (I do not believe that there was any intention to misinform, merely indignation and outrage at what might be going on).
(emphasis mine)
Yes, pretty much. Thankfully, everything has a comments section nowadays so mistakes can be pointed out.
On a related tangent is this Cracked article.
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I keep forgetting that there are people who actually believe the lies and fairy tales that the far right and austrian/chicago school propagandists tell about 'free markets', and 'laissez faire capitalism' being anything other than a means to enrich their masters while keeping as many other people as poor and powerless as possible.
Here's a tiny tidbit of truth for you John.
Fifty years ago the US economy was far more tightly controlled and regulated then it is now. Anyone says otherwise is ignorant or lying.
Here is some more 'truth' for you...
;) = means a wink...as in I am not totaly serious...
Here is another 'truth'...everything about politics(right, left, middle) is a means to enrich their masters(or themselves) by keeping people as poor and powerless as possible.
I find you funny though you running dog for the socialist elite. ;)
Capitalism is the idea that hard work and ingenuity can help get you into the elite, even if very few do. Socialism/communism is the idea that you should be happy to be equal it poverty, except for the elite master you do not question. That seems to be the truth of how it works.
Capitalism is the idea that hard work and ingenuity can help get you into the elite, even if very few do. Socialism/communism is the idea that you should be happy to be equal it poverty, except for the elite master you do not question. That seems to be the truth of how it works.
You got the definition of capitalism pretty close, but the definition of socialism seems to have come straight from Fox News' "Let's Lie To People" department. And, as usual with Faux News, completely ignores the successful socialist programs throughout Northern Europe.
While we can certainly agree that the so-called Nordic Model is not pure socialism, it's also both a lot closer to it than most Americans feel comfortable with, and also is no way "equal [in] poverty."
And the idea that "it doesn't matter which liar you choose, because they're all working for the same secret cabal" is not only stupid, but actively worse than either choice. You can see for yourself that policy matters. If democracy is indeed "two wolves and a sheep voting on dinner," the least you can do for yourself is not actively make yourself into a sheep.
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Capitalism is the idea that hard work and ingenuity can help get you into the elite, even if very few do. Socialism/communism is the idea that you should be happy to be equal it poverty, except for the elite master you do not question. That seems to be the truth of how it works.You got the definition of capitalism pretty close, but the definition of socialism seems to have come straight from Fox News' "Let's Lie To People" department. And, as usual with Faux News, completely ignores the successful socialist programs throughout Northern Europe.
While we can certainly agree that the so-called Nordic Model is not pure socialism, it's also both a lot closer to it than most Americans feel comfortable with, and also is no way "equal [in] poverty."
And the idea that "it doesn't matter which liar you choose, because they're all working for the same secret cabal" is not only stupid, but actively worse than either choice. You can see for yourself that policy matters. If democracy is indeed "two wolves and a sheep voting on dinner," the least you can do for yourself is not actively make yourself into a sheep.
If socialism does not mean equal in poverty why are so many socialist countries on the verge of economic collapse? And the less "pure" socialism in a country the better it seams to be doing? (like the nordic)
I am not saying to not watch news but if you're a sheep dumb enough to get all of your dinner plans from one of the wolves what happens to you?
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If socialism does not mean equal in poverty why are so many socialist countries on the verge of economic collapse?
Its not like capitalistic countries don't do the same thing.
And the less "pure" socialism in a country the better it seams to be doing? (like the nordic)
You could ask the same about less pure forms of capitalism.
The answer is pretty simple really: neither system is evil and the best system is a mix of the two.
If socialism does not mean equal in poverty why are so many socialist countries on the verge of economic collapse?
Kleptocracy and the failure of rule of law.
And the less "pure" socialism in a country the better it seams to be doing?
And that's why the Nordic countries are doing so much worse than the American version of socialism.... Riiiight.
I am not saying to not watch news but if you're a sheep dumb enough to get all of your dinner plans from one of the wolves what happens to you?
What happens is that you post things saying "Socialism/communism is the idea that you should be happy to be equal it poverty, except for the elite master you do not question" on the Web.
Capitalism is the idea that if you have a big pile of money (ie, capital) you should be rewarded for using that to exploit the hard work and ingenuity of others to further enrich yourself.
And thus is parity of ignorance maintained.
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If socialism does not mean equal in poverty why are so many socialist countries on the verge of economic collapse?Kleptocracy and the failure of rule of law.
And the less "pure" socialism in a country the better it seams to be doing?And that's why the Nordic countries are doing so much worse than the American version of socialism.... Riiiight.
I am not saying to not watch news but if you're a sheep dumb enough to get all of your dinner plans from one of the wolves what happens to you?What happens is that you post things saying "Socialism/communism is the idea that you should be happy to be equal it poverty, except for the elite master you do not question" on the Web.
You get bothered by people that like the idea of stealing from one to give to another until there is nothing left to steal and plenty with hands out.
Going to a more free market form of Capitalism has actually caused problems here in Finland...
You get bothered by people that like the idea of stealing from one to give to another until there is nothing left to steal and plenty with hands out.
Do you also get bothered by leprechauns? Why permit yourself to be bothered by imaginary things?
This seems to be the modern American right's version of ghost stories Use the word "socialism" to describe an imaginary beast that has never existed, get people good and scared about it, then once people are conditioned to think this way, use their ignorance to criticize what even The Economist, normally a bastion of business interests, considers to be the best system of governance in the world today.
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Wow!
Someone turns up with an AGENDA and suddenly this whole thread is completely side-tracked.
So, maybe we could stick to the plight of the disadvantaged in countries like Greece which are facing economic unrest.
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Greece is not, as far as I can tell, a fundamentally flawed nation: it has a high-level of education, a broadly cohesive society that, functioning systems of governance, decent infrastructure...
Greece has tourism, shipping, agriculture and fisheries as major industries and these should all strengthen as the world economy recovers.
Will Greece actually be able to pay their debts and rebuild as a functional society with less tax evasion? Or is that unlikely?
