I have a druid in two separate games (one PFS one RotR home) while the RotR character has much more set in stone feat's thanks to crafting the PFS character I have no idea about. The characters. I summon often but I also like to wade into melee.
Both human with a lion and the following stat array.
STR: 16 DEX: 12 CON: 14 INT: 12 WIS: 16 CHA: 7
Feats
1: SF Conjuration
H: Augment summons
3: Superior summons
5: Natural spell
7: Power attack/Wild speech/Planar wildshape/Metamagic
9: Power attack/Wild speech/Planar wildshape/Metamagic
11: Quicken spell/Dazing spell
The first four are set in stone and I like them as they are. The problem is that I need power attack to melee and planar wildshape provides a boat load of damage with smite. I know I want at least 1 metamagic as well but I'm unsure if dazing is better than quicken.
One trick I have is to pick up the Trait, Two-World Magic for Ghost Sound, allowing you to cast it and 'speak' while Wild Shaped
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/two-world-magic
How would you cast ghost sound? It has a verbal component and a 1 round per level duration. Also please don't say that you would go around and recast ghost sound every so many rounds (at level 10 it would be once a minute) to keep it going as you would eventually forget to do it and loose it all.
Satchmo wrote: How would you cast ghost sound? It has a verbal component and a 1 round per level duration. Also please don't say that you would go around and recast ghost sound every so many rounds (at level 10 it would be once a minute) to keep it going as you would eventually forget to do it and loose it all. Natural Spell
My question was in response to Lemonfresh who stated that you could use ghost sound instead of having natural spell.
Ghost Sound won't work, especially in PFS. Ghost Sound is a figment, and in the Magic chapter of the CRB, the rules for figment spells says:
Quote: A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. The spell description for Ghost Sound does not specify that it can make intelligible speech, and therefore it can't.
A lenient GM in a home game might let this slide. It definitely won't fly in PFS.
Lemonfresh wrote: One trick I have is to pick up the Trait, Two-World Magic for Ghost Sound, allowing you to cast it and 'speak' while Wild Shaped
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/two-world-magic
I had thought of that but the truth is wild speech can be easily subverted with items. It was mostly on the list for reasons purely of completeness. The biggest question is between planar wild shape, power attack and metamagic feats. Dazing spell seems incredible at 9+ with flaming sphere and call lightning but meleeing gives superior damage. Power attack works better on the elemental form though. My immediate reaction damage wise is that planar wild shape (Into say celestial dire tiger) is the best damage but dazing is really powerful control (especially the flaming sphere). The DC for it at 9th would be 12+modifier (Probably dc 18 ref assuming I have prestige for 16k by then).
I never said "instead of having natural spell". Imbicatus is right, you the Natural Spell feat in conjuction with ghost sound.
Tinalles, did you really read up on the Ghost Sound spell? "Thus, talking, singing, shouting, walking, marching, or running sounds can be created. The noise a ghost sound spell produces can be virtually any type of sound within the volume limit."
Virtually any type of sound...
Tinalles wrote: Ghost Sound won't work, especially in PFS. Ghost Sound is a figment, and in the Magic chapter of the CRB, the rules for figment spells says:
Quote: A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. The spell description for Ghost Sound does not specify that it can make intelligible speech, and therefore it can't.
A lenient GM in a home game might let this slide. It definitely won't fly in PFS.
Quote: The volume of sound created depends on your level. You can produce as much noise as four normal humans per caster level (maximum 40 humans). Thus, talking, singing, shouting, walking, marching, or running sounds can be created. I don't think it is actually very clear that it can't. It says it can do talking and singing afterall. When you look at Minor Image it explicitly says it CAN'T do intelligible speech. Ghost Sound doesn't have an exclusion and does say it does talking. Normally talking is intelligible, so one would think that's implied.
The key word is "intelligible". Ghost Sound could easily replicate, say, the background noise from a busy restaurant, where many people are talking but you cannot make out distinct conversations.
Since does not specifically say "intelligible", you don't get intelligibility.
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Tinalles wrote: The key word is "intelligible". Ghost Sound could easily replicate, say, the background noise from a busy restaurant, where many people are talking but you cannot make out distinct conversations.
Since does not specifically say "intelligible", you don't get intelligibility.
The point of disagreement is on how explicit the description needs to be. You are saying that you essentially require a direct quote of "intelligible" speech.
We're saying that a spell that specifically says it can do talking, singing, and shouting qualifies. Talking, singing, and shouting is intelligible, that's implied. Especially if it says it can produce "virtually any type of sound" is part of the description.
This seems like a perfectly reasonable viewpoint when other illusion spells feel the need to explicitly point out that they CAN'T replicate speech. If everything in the rules required as precise wording as you are demanding here, most of the game would be unplayable. I only say this to point out that your standards in this area are a bit high.
I can hear the sound of talking, singing, or shouting through a closed door and not find the sounds intelligible. Singing can also be nonsense syllables "La la la" and not intelligible speach, and one can simply shout without saying words.
The rules require explicit text that says intelligible speech is possible, otherwise it doesn't work. You would need a line clarifying that the spell overrides the general rule.
Ghost Sound doesn't work--just take Wild Speech and accept that druid's 5th and 7th level feats are taxed away.
mplindustries wrote: I can hear the sound of talking, singing, or shouting through a closed door and not find the sounds intelligible. Singing can also be nonsense syllables "La la la" and not intelligible speach, and one can simply shout without saying words.
The rules require explicit text that says intelligible speech is possible, otherwise it doesn't work. You would need a line clarifying that the spell overrides the general rule.
Ghost Sound doesn't work--just take Wild Speech and accept that druid's 5th and 7th level feats are taxed away.
If I need to speak I can just take air/earth elemental form and cast. Thinking about it more I think that elemental form and summon slinging is probably best which leaves power attack as the better feat (+3 damage/-1 hit on slams) since planar wild shape doesn't work on elemental form or plant form (Mi Go).
True. The Elementals can all speak their respective languages, and probably whatever other languages you know.
Planar wild shape is great . The DR will keep you alive.
I think you should pass on superior summon
I only let the druid in my game speak the elemental tongue he is in. If you read the descriptors, they are probably one of the only tongues the elemental can properly speak anyway.
mplindustries wrote: The rules require explicit text that says intelligible speech is possible, otherwise it doesn't work. You would need a line clarifying that the spell overrides the general rule. But let's remember "intelligible speech" isn't a game term. It is descriptive text of what needs to be said. So an illusion that says it can produce talking, singing, etc, is quite sufficient. Especially if it also says it can produce almost any sort of sound.
That said, I don't believe it is possible to change what a Ghost Sound is saying in response to what someone else says. You setup the initial parameters, and thereafter can pretty much just adjust volume and location. Poooossibly, I could see letting someone indicate yes and no with it during the duration. Not sure how I'd rule.
Beyond that, you'd need a different casting for each response.
I'd look at metamagic as well, at least if you have ultimate magic. You have some good Rime Spell and Dazing Spell carriers and a number of 10 minute/level buffs that might benefit from extend depending on how long the typical PFS workday is.
Atarlost wrote: I'd look at metamagic as well, at least if you have ultimate magic. You have some good Rime Spell and Dazing Spell carriers and a number of 10 minute/level buffs that might benefit from extend depending on how long the typical PFS workday is. Dazing spell even being at +3 levels seems to be a bit broken with spells that have saves over multiple rounds.
Drachasor wrote: Atarlost wrote: I'd look at metamagic as well, at least if you have ultimate magic. You have some good Rime Spell and Dazing Spell carriers and a number of 10 minute/level buffs that might benefit from extend depending on how long the typical PFS workday is. Dazing spell even being at +3 levels seems to be a bit broken with spells that have saves over multiple rounds. The biggest thing about dazing spell is that for 14,000 I can buy it as a lesser rod (I'll never get 7th level spells anyway on that character). While really good Unless you can point out 4 spells/day I'd want to enhance at 9th-11th It seems better to save the feat with a rod. As for using the rod people have so astutely pointed out I can drop it, shape, and then pick it up.
1: Nothing I want Dazing on, only lasts 1 round
2: Flaming sphere daze every round, Stone call although I really wouldn't want to prepare that spell.
3: Call lightning this one is amazing as it gives me a save or suck every single round, Burst of nettles is alright but not great, Spike growth is awesome control already this makes it absurd.
So the two big ones are flaming sphere and call lightning with spike growth being a decent BC choice. There are others but they are already strong BC spells which don't need dazing. Burst of radiance stands out to me but it would only daze once unlike the above.
My immediate reaction after seeing this thread is to spend more time in elemental shape unless we need a tank. If we need a tank planar wild shape helps me cover it (DR + Resistances + Smite evil) and a simple druid's vestment replaces the lost wildshape if I need it again.
My leaning is as follows
H: SF Conjuration
1: Augment summoning
3: Superior summons
5: Natural spell
7: Planar wild shape
9: Power attack
11:
The biggest thing that pushed me over the "take planar wild shape" Is that it makes me a real tank. I went and read the celestial template. I knew they buffed smite but the DR has been buffed from /magic to /evil (Virtually unbreakable by most monsters) and resistances of 10 to all but... fire... still good, the spell resistance is insignificant but having a ~20% chance to make spells fail isn't something to turn your nose up at. If I run into my faction mission I can shift back do it and then be an elemental slinging spells from 30 feet up. That leaves me with 1 feat.
As for speaking in elemental as I understand it you cannot gain new languages via wild shape because of the polymorph rules. Elementals can speak any language they know as with all creatures capable of intelligible speech. You can speak common ergo your elemental shape can speak common.
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