Flurry of Misses?

[The Artaxerxes]

I play with a friend of mine who is currently running a monk, and he jokes that his flurry of blows is a "flurry of misses." This lead me to wonder exactly how FoB works. Each level you have a bonus to each blow (+4,+4,+0 for example), but then what? If you add your BAB (did I read somewhere that FoB uses your monk level as your BAB?) and your STR modifier, it should be better than a normal hit. Do I have something wrong here?

[Ximen Bao]

The Artaxerxes wrote:

Each level you have a bonus to each blow (+4,+4,+0 for example)

Nope. That column in the monk table isn't giving you a bonus, it's pre-calculating the normal BAB -2 to get your BAB while using flurry.

Flurry gives an extra attack but makes all attacks hit at -2. It's very similar to two-weapon fighting.

[I Hate Nickelback]

Ohhhh, so then you add your STR modifier to that?

[MrSin]

Flurry is identical to two weapon fighting with a full BAB class(though your off hand iteratives arrive at odd times), however you get no bonuses from your class features, and your a monk so your a little mad so its still not as accurate as a full BAB class.

d20PFSRD wrote:

For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level.

In 3.5 it was much worse because it went from 2 attacks at -2 to 5 attacks starting at +15. I've mostly seen the flurry of misses comment about the 3.5 monk instead of the PF monk.

I Hate Nickelback wrote:

Ohhhh, so then you add your STR modifier to that?

Yes, you add 1x your strength bonus to those attacks.

d20PFSRD wrote:

A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.

[I Hate Nickelback]

Ok, thanks for the help.

[Ximen Bao]

I Hate Nickelback wrote:

Ohhhh, so then you add your STR modifier to that?

Yep, along with whatever other bonuses you have.

I did get it wrong slightly.

It's not his normal BAB it's subtracting 2 from. When you use FoB, you use your monk level as your BaB bonus. So your BaB goes up because your level will be higher than the normal BaB, then it goes down from the -2.

An example:

At level 1 you have +0 for a base attack bonus.

You want to do a flurry of blows.

So you consider your base attack bonus as +1, then you subtract 2 to your normal attack and the extra attack.

Which means you make two attacks at -1.

[Kazumetsa Raijin]

The Artaxerxes wrote:

I play with a friend of mine who is currently running a monk, and he jokes that his flurry of blows is a "flurry of misses." This lead me to wonder exactly how FoB works. Each level you have a bonus to each blow (+4,+4,+0 for example), but then what? If you add your BAB (did I read somewhere that FoB uses your monk level as your BAB?) and your STR modifier, it should be better than a normal hit. Do I have something wrong here?

Look at the bonus provided by FOB, and add that to your Str or Dex Mod(whatever you use for melee) and then add any other modifiers like AoMF for Unarmed or Weapons if you don't use Unarmed or Weapon Focus etc.

[Kazaan]

Here's the details on how it works:

Normally, a Monk 2 would have +1 BAB. So, for the Attack action or AoOs, you'd calculate the attack with +1 BAB as normal. So, if you are a Monk 2 with +1 Bab and +2 Str, you'd attack at d20+3 for standard Attacks and AoOs. However, with FoB, you calculate your BAB as if Monk got full-bab so, instead of +1 BAB, you treat Monk 2 as having +2 BAB for the purpose of those flurry attacks. Then, you apply -2 for TWF to each attack. So with +2 BAB, +2 Str, and -2 for normal FoB penalty, you net d20+2 when you flurry (as opposed to d20+3). Note how +2 BAB -2 TWF penalty nets to +0 which matches the entry in the Monk's flurry table. Straight Monk is kind of hard at first because you can't even take Weapon Focus until lvl 3 because you don't satisfy the +1 BAB requirement until Monk 2 but then you don't get another general-use feat slot until character level 3. For this reason, many will start with a level of a full-bab class (especially the Unarmed Fighter fighter archetype) so they can take Weapon Focus right from level 1. This is especially hard since the bonus you get from calculating full-BAB from FoB doesn't beat out the -2 penalty built into FoB until Monk 9. It would be very nice if they officially changed the rules so that you can take a feat at lvl 1 that you don't have the BAB to qualify for and it only functions once your BAB increases, either through using FoB or hitting Monk 2 (not needing to wait until Monk 3 to take it). In that case, you could take Weapon Focus at Monk 1 and you'd make both Flurry and non-fluffy attacks at d20 + Str and then, at level 2, you'd Flurry at d20 + 1 + Str and non-Flurry at d20 + 2 + Str.

[cnetarian]

There are a couple of factors involved in why FoB is called FoM.

1) attributes. martial classes get a hit bonus from STR (or DEX depending on build) but the monk class is highly WIS dependent, unless a monk skimps on WIS they are going to -1 or -2 to hit compared to a real martial class off the bat.

2) itemization. unarmed attacks use the amulet of mighty fists to mimic weapon enchants, but the AoMF tops out at a +5 enchant while weapons top out at +10. An AoMF can be enchanted to +5 to hit but doing so wipes out most of the improved damage potential of it. the march 2013 errata which some people have missed at least lowers the price of the AoMF to equal the price of 2 weapon enchants. The way around this is to use 'monk' weapons, but if you are going to use weapons why not just play a ranger with TWF, a fighter of some type etc, etc.

3) feats. monks are not a full BAB class, and they just cannot get feats like weapon focus at the same level as full BAB classes. Ultimate Combat finally fixes this and monks can actually get style feast earlier than a non-monk but all the earlier feats which improve hit chance are level behind for monks (example: the outflank feat from APG which gives +4 to hit for flanking enemies, fighters can take it at level 4, other full BAB classes at level 5 and monks at level 7).

4) class bonuses. the full BAB classes have either direct or indirect bonuses to hit, barbs get raging strength, fighters get weapon training, paladins get bound weapons & smite, rangers get favored enemies and spells, cavaliers (which are weak enough) at least get cavalier charge, gunslingers - touch AC.

Result: monks using FOB are a few points less likely to hit off than full BAB classes at level 1 and the gap grows as they level up. monks are a 3/4th BAB class like bard, inquisitors, clerics. alchemists etc which can use FOB to be better in combat than a basic 3/4th BAB character. this brings us to the question of the role of the monk in a party though, 3/4th BAB classes other than the monk have abilities which can benefit the whole party (the rogue at least has trap-finding, whoop-de-do) while fighting, the monk can fight and has some abilities which help the monk but not the party.

[Dabbler]

cnetarian sums it up pretty well. The monk is down on accuracy right at the outset.

Further to this, it should be pointed out that the monk's flurry of blows is restricted to a limited set of weapons, most of which are sub-standard to those available to other combat classes. The temple sword is the only mediocre weapon available without paying a feat-tax. The unarmed strike is likewise only mediocre. The telling factors for damage are, in descending order of importance: Accuracy to hit, static bonuses, threat range, base damage. The monk is likely less accurate as noted above, gets fewer static bonuses (all other martials have a mojo that adds to damage, and the monk likely has lower strength), the threat range on monk weapons is not great (most are 20/x2, save the temple sword at 19-20/x2).

This is why there are so many "Paizo please fix the monk!" threads.