k, thanks for your patience, I realise I got a little irate there, sorry about that.
Is that the final ruling of the thread?
k, thanks for your patience, I realise I got a little irate there, sorry about that.
Is that the final ruling of the thread?
It is ok..These things get heated at times.
If you go strictly by the way the rules are written I think we can agree that the ability is legal, but...
Sometimes when the rules are written situations like this are not thought of by the writers. I have been playing for about 10 years, and never seen anyone delay to bypass the spell.
I don't think it will be changed due to delaying being an action, because most us know it is not an action. The spell might be changed so that people can't delay to get two chances if they have a caster, to escape the spell.
Here is what I am expecting. "You may take a full round action on your last initiative count before the spell was failed."
It might not be those exact words, but something similar, if they change it.
k, thanks for your patience, I realise I got a little irate there, sorry about that.
Is that the final ruling of the thread?
No. We still differ. The point is, the meaning of "action" doesn't come into it. Basically you can do nothing besides try to make your save. It doesn't say you CAN delay, and it's clear the RAI is for you not to be able to do anything voluntarily.
k, thanks for your patience, I realise I got a little irate there, sorry about that.
Is that the final ruling of the thread?
No. We still differ. The point is, the meaning of "action" doesn't come into it. Basically you can do nothing besides try to make your save. It doesn't say you CAN delay, and it's clear the RAI is for you not to be able to do anything voluntarily.
You keep saying it is clear, but I don't see any proof. I think we both agree on the end result we are just taking different paths to get there. I see no rule against anything voluntary, but I do think the spell was intended to take your turn away barring the action to break the spell.
It seems like a really fine line, but I think the why is just as important as the end result. It has already been shown with the summoner that voluntary actions are still legal assuming no actions are used.
I think the fact that the spell is mind affecting means it would stop mental actions, including delay. But I'm sure that's been covered over and over again in this post.
It has, nobody has been able to define delaying as a mental action. It is even less strenuous than a summoner transferring hit points to its Eidolon. If hit points can be transferred then people should be allowed to wait.
Apologies if this has already been brought up but in the spell description it states you may attempt a new save implying a choice between saving or not.
I skimmed through the responses So hopefully i didnt miss this being brought up. The issues beign discussed seems to be 'can you take a delay' when under hold person.
I think its actually fairly clear you Cannot. I was under the impression That if you had some 'negatie effect' That you were forced to take you could not avoid it with Delay.
In this case with hold person not only does it say you cant take any actions but the act of Attempting to remove the hold for your save is a full round action. (i think technically this contradicts itself but he intent is clear so we'll ignore that)
It seems to me that it doesnt matter if you want to Delay. Your turn comes along and hold person tells you what sort of action your doing. Not only are you unable to do nothing but the nothing you are doing takes a full round to do in an attempt to make a save.
I dont know if the 'cant avoid negative effects' with delay
thing applies to hold person but it seems it doesn't matter.
I skimmed through the responses So hopefully i didnt miss this being brought up. The issues beign discussed seems to be 'can you take a delay' when under hold person.
I think its actually fairly clear you Cannot. I was under the impression That if you had some 'negatie effect' That you were forced to take you could not avoid it with Delay.
In this case with hold person not only does it say you cant take any actions but the act of Attempting to remove the hold for your save is a full round action. (i think technically this contradicts itself but he intent is clear so we'll ignore that)
It seems to me that it doesnt matter if you want to Delay. Your turn comes along and hold person tells you what sort of action your doing. Not only are you unable to do nothing but the nothing you are doing takes a full round to do in an attempt to make a save.
I dont know if the 'cant avoid negative effects' with delay
thing applies to hold person but it seems it doesn't matter.
The problem is hold person, as currently worded, says you may make a saving throw, not that you must.
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I don't think the developers considered the possibility that anyone would ever voluntarily choose to forgo or delay making the save.
Historically, hold spells have been among the most popular and powerful spells of their spell level, throughout several editions of the game.
A save-or-be-screwed effect, that could take out one (or more!) targets, for the entire encounter, on one failed save.
It's because of that popularity, that the spells were modified. First to take away the option to hit up to three targets, then to allow save rerolls.
And you still see the spell in people's lists, which implies the original version was overly powerful, and the current version is still powerful.
And, being a powerful effect, the developers probably assumed that anyone failing the initial save would be doing everything in their power to break free, as soon as possible.