Greetings, fellow traveller.
The key sentence here is: "This mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using the paladin's level as her effective druid level."
Your AC does not profit from the Advanced Simple Template (neither does a druid's, ranger's, cavalier's companion).
You use the starting stat block in the druid section, use the table AC base statistics and add the advancement at lvl 4. Period.
As per the mechanics and the rules discussion about ACs on these boards it would still need all the necessary tricks to do so, you would still need to pass the Handle Animal skill check (though it should be an auto-success by then) and the AC still is not sentient - that's what the spell Awaken is for.
Last but not least: your GM is the final arbiter.
Ruyan.
The discussion about the horse, what stats to use, and applying the mentioned Advanced Simple Template has been discussed in length on these boards.
An Animal Companion is not an animal rules-wise. Thus, the stats given in the Bestiaries do not apply.
Methinks your quote for the advancement at lvl 11 is wrong. The PRD states:
At 11th level, the mount gains the celestial template and becomes a magical beast for the purposes of determining which spells affect it. At 15th level, a paladin's mount gains spell resistance equal to the paladin's level + 11.
The Celestial Template is given in the Monster Advancement section of the Bestiary.
What do you mean by the skill "literacy"? Do you mean Linguistics?
The skill says:
You are skilled at working with language, in both its spoken and written forms. You can speak multiple languages, and can decipher nearly any tongue given enough time.
Since your AC is not able to work with language (what you seem to agree to in your above post), I as GM would not allow an AC to be able to write/read either.
Ruyan.
Not really. It is still an Animal Companion and follows the rules given in the specific AC section under the druid class.
The AC of the pally is an exception to the general rule that an AC starts with an INT>2 what this implies rules-wise has not been dicussed (afaik) anywhere yet.
Also, just because an AC has an INT>2 (via stat increase or otherwise) does not make it sentient.
See the blog post: Monkey see, monkey do?
Ruyan.
Hm, ok. I'm away from books and haven't looked at my copy of UCa yet.
I like the latest version - hopefully stops the discussion about who controlls an AC and what it can do; caveat: [...] are usually player-controlled. *sigh*
And to pick up the discussion concerning Linguistics: I'd allow the AC putting skill points into said skill, but--as you seem to agree--the use of having skill points in that skill seems rather limited, the benefits small.
Ruyan.
The AC (with int 3+) can put ranks into Linguistics. it gains languages it understands, it just can't speak any (although, I would probably allow some flexibility with that, for example, a hyena AC with INT 3 being able to make itself understood in Gnoll or a feline AC being able to make itself understood in Catfolk, and no not at the poet laurate level, but at least to convey general thoughts/feelings/situational things like danger, hot, hungry, bored, etc).
What it benefits the AC is the AC (who most people still consider an animal and might talk around) can get more and more information, can read where others might not think it can (think of sending in a monkey AC to search a library at night to find a specific book by the spine). It also makes it easier to convey information to the AC by the companions of the AC's partner.
Finally, there are magic items that convey telepathy, etc, that would be useful to the AC to be able to communicate what they heard/read.
A core point of the paladin's mount is being missed.
it is a HEAVY WARHORSE. (usually)
a paladin does not get an ANIMAL COMPANION, they just use the ANIMAL COMPANION rules to enhance and progress the paladin mount.
The Paladin Class does not provide a list of options as to what is usable as a mount and what is not, however if they choose something other than a HEAVY WARHORSE, they must go by the options listed in the ANIMAL COMPANION list. Keep in mind that the listing in ANIMAL COMPANION is HORSE, not HEAVY WARHORSE. Therefore whatever the paladin chooses should be a HEAVY WAR- version of that listing, giving it the Simple Advanced Template and Combat Training (according to the HORSE entry in the Beastiary and this website). This means that the druid and ranger ANIMAL COMPANIONS do not gain the advantage of the simple advanced template but the paladin does. also keep in mind that options for a paladin mount should be limited to:
Large (for medium sized paladin, Medium for small sized paladins, etc)
2HD (even though the table starts at 5HD, the base creature should
still be 2HD since the Simple Advanced Template and Combat Training
are already included. However i would say at higher levels one could
choose a more powerful mount with that base HD limit of 3 less than
the chart states at any given level)
CR1
A generally ride-able quadruped body type
i have seen some conflicting, poorly mathed, poorly grammared (excusing my intentionally incorrect grammaring) entries for "HEAVY HORSE" and "HEAVY WARHORSE" therefore i discard them in favor of the following baseline and applicable modular entries:
a 5th level paladin's mount should be as follows:
Heavy WarHorse
CR 5
N Large animal
Init +4(Dex)
Senses
low-light vision
scent
Perception +11
DEFENSE
AC 17 = 10(base) -1(Large) +4(Dex) +4(natural)
touch 13
flat footed 13
hp 45 (5d8+25)
Fort +9, Ref +8, Will +4
OFFENSE
Speed 50 ft.
Melee 2 hooves +8 (1d6+5) Bludgeoning (critical 20/x2)
Bite +7 (1d8+5) Piercing + Slashing + Bludgeoning (critical 20/x2)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
STATISTICS
Str 21 (+5) = 16(Light Horse) +4(Simple Advanced) +1(Paladin Mount)
Dex 19 (+4) = 14(Light Horse) +4(Simple Advanced) +1(Paladin Mount)
Con 21 (+5) = 17(Light Horse) +4(Simple Advanced)
Int 6 (-4) = 2(Light Horse) +4(Simple Advanced/Paladin Mount)
Wis 17 (+3) = 13(Light Horse) +4(Simple Advanced)
Cha 11 (+0) = 7(Light Horse) +4(Simple Advanced)
Base Atk +3
Size: Large
Attack Adjustment -1
Special Size Modifier +1
CMB +9 = +3(Base Attack) +5(STR) +1(Special Size Modifier: Large)
CMD 23 (27 vs. trip) = 10(Base) +3(Base Attack) +5(STR) +4(DEX) +1(Large) +4(Quadruped vs trip)
FEATS
Endurance (appears to be a free feat from being horse)
Run (1st level bonus feat)
______ (3HD bonus feat)
______ (5HD bonus feat
SKILLS
Perception +11 = +3(WIS) +5(Rank) +3(Animal Class)
SPECIAL QUALITIES
Docile (Ex) Combat Training
LInk
Share Spells
Evasion (or Barding Training with Charger AC Archtype)
At 11th Level, the mount would have this:
Heavy WarHorse
CR 8
N Large animal (Good)
Init +5(Dex)
Senses
low-light vision
scent
Perception +11
DEFENSE
AC 22 = 10(base) -1(Large) +5(Dex) +8(natural)
touch 14
flat footed 17
hp 45 (5d8+25)
Fort +11, Ref +11, Will +6
OFFENSE
Speed 50 ft.
Melee 2 hooves +11 (1d6+6) Bludgeoning (critical 20/x2)
Bite +11 (1d8+6) Piercing + Slashing + Bludgeoning (critical 20/x2)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
STATISTICS
Str 23 (+6) = 16(Light Horse) +4(Simple Advanced) +3(Paladin Mount)
Dex 21 (+5) = 14(Light Horse) +4(Simple Advanced) +3(Paladin Mount)
Con 21 (+5) = 17(Light Horse) +4(Simple Advanced)
Int 6 (-4) = 2(Light Horse) +4(Simple Advanced/Paladin Mount)
Wis 17 (+3) = 13(Light Horse) +4(Simple Advanced)
Cha 13 (+1) = 7(Light Horse) +4(Simple Advanced) +1(4HD) +1(8HD)
Base Atk +6/+1
Size: Large
Attack/Armor Class Adjustment -1
Special Size Modifier +1
CMB +13 = +6(Base Attack) +6(STR) +1(Special Size Modifier: Large)
CMD 28 (32 vs. trip) = 10(Base) +6(Base Attack) +6(STR) +5(DEX) +1(Large) +4(Quadruped vs trip)
FEATS
Endurance (appears to be a free feat from being horse)
Run (1HD bonus feat)
______ (3HD bonus feat)
______ (5HD bonus feat
______ (7HD bonus feat)
______ (9HD bonus feat)
SKILLS
Intimidate +7 = +1(CHA) +3(Rank) +3(Charger Archtype Class)
Perception +11 = +3(WIS) +5(Rank) +3(Animal Class)
Linguistics -3 = -4(INT) +1(Rank)
Lagnuages: Common (automatic with INT>2), Celestial (from rank in Linguistics)
SPECIAL QUALITIES
Docile (Ex) Combat Training
Simple Advanced Template: all abilites +4, AC +2(nat)
Link
Share Spells
Evasion (or Barding Training with Charger AC Archtype)
Devotion (or Indefatigable with Charge AC Archtype)
Multiattack (or Barding Training improved with Charger AC Archtype)
Celestial Template:
Darkvision 60ft
Energy Resistance 10 vs acid, cold, & electricity
Damage Reduction 5/evil
Smite Evil once per day +1(CHA)
Spell Resistance 13 = CR+8
Magical Beast (in reference to which spells affect it)
ANIMAL
Paizo Inc.
HORSE (aka HORSE, LIGHT) (aka LIGHT RIDING HORSE)
Paizo Inc.
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 7
on the same page after the ECOLOGY Section is this entry:
"The statistics above are for a typical riding horse, called by some a “light horse.” Some horses are larger and heartier, bred for labor such as pulling plows or carriages. These horses are called “heavy horses” and gain the advanced simple template, a bite attack, increased hoof damage, and can be specifically trained for combat with the Handle Animal skill.
therefore a Paladin's HEAVY WARHORSE has combat training and the simple advanced template:
HEAVY (simple advanced template) + WAR (combat trained = Docile) + HORSE (light riding horse base statistics)
SIMPLE ADVANCED TEMPLATE
Paizo Inc.
"Rebuild Rules: AC increase natural armor by +2; Ability Scores +4 to all ability scores (except Int scores of 2 or less)"
PALAIN DIVINE BOND ENTRY
Paizo Inc.
"This mount is usually a heavy horse (for a Medium paladin) or a pony (for a Small paladin), although more exotic mounts, such as a boar, camel, or dog are also suitable. This mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using the paladin's level as her effective druid level. Bonded mounts have an Intelligence of at least 6.
At 11th level, the mount gains the celestial creature simple template and becomes a magical beast for the purposes of determining which spells affect it.
At 15th level, a paladin's mount gains spell resistance equal to the paladin's level + 11.
therefore, since this HEAVY WARHORSE gained at 5th level has the simple advanced template which gives it a +4 to all stats except intelligence since it starts off as a 2, but gets an Intelligence of at least 6 from being a paladin's mount. this basically says that the +4 from the simple advanced template has been allowed to bring the intelligence up to a 6
but, my players complain, if the Paladin entry says at least INT 6 and we get to add the Simple Advanced Template, that +4 now applies to Intelligence, therefore the intelligence is now a 10 before we even get to the Animal Companion Chart, right? NO. WRONG. Intelligence 6. you're trying to double dip the same bonus. this is my interpretation. yall do what you like. lets move on
SIMPLE: CELESTIAL TEMPLATE
Paizo Inc.
NATURAL ATTACKS BY SIZE
Paizo Inc.
The skill ranks from the chart is based on Animal skill ranks which is 2 per HD + INT 2 (modifier -4) which equals -2 skill points per level(minimum 1 per level). But we start with a INT 6 (modifier -2) which equals +0(still minimum 1). These are not extra skill ranks. they are total skill ranks. So if you put all your "every 4th level" ability modifiers in Intelligence, you would still not get any more skill points than 1 per HD until level 16 when the mount hits INT 10 and at least got the base 2 skill points per level from the "animal class" as it were. at level 24, the mount could have INT 12 (+1), giving it 3 per level. Most monster entries put skill points into perception. the Horse Entry certainly does.
But can horses read?
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Aatod4vlwA]Paizo Inc.
Yes. Horses can read if trained. Horses can read Russian if trained.
But can they write? meh. sure why not. but yes, it would take a long time. but as the video shows they can at least spell correctly.
But can they speak?
no. but they can whinny. and gesture. and communicate with rudimentary body language. So they can still communicate with anyone who is paying attention (Perception check, then INT or Linguistics ck)
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Someone break it down for me. Is there a mistake on d20pfsrd.com, or discrepancy between it and the official rules somewhere that I need to correct?
Looks like it has been corrected from what has been stated in this thread:
At 11th level, the mount gains the celestial creature simple template and becomes a magical beast for the purposes of determining which spells affect it.
At 11th level, the mount gains the celestial template and becomes a magical beast for the purposes of determining which spells affect it.
The word 'advanced' (as in Advanced Simple Template) was claimed to have been used in the passage on the SRD, and if so, it is no longer there. This would limit the confusion.
am I wrong somewhere in my post above? i checked the Heavy Horse entry and it does seem to be correct. i think i was looking at the Horse, Advanced, which is different and not what should be used.
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Remove all reference to the Advanced Template, first, but you need quite a few corrections in addition to that.
A couple of them being that the Paladin's Mount is an Animal Companion, and there is a specific list called out in the class writeup.
Edit: actually, it would have been best if you just hadn't necro'd this thread, with as many errors as it already had.
Someone break it down for me. Is there a mistake on d20pfsrd.com, or discrepancy between it and the official rules somewhere that I need to correct?
Yes.
According to Core Rulebook, 5th Printing, November 2011, pg 63, it no longer says "Heavy Horse" it just says "usually a Horse".
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The second necro'ed thread on this. Whew. And still nothing to add to the first few posts.
Ruyan.
we werent here long ago when you got bored of this topic. I found it through google. On this thread were a lot of opinions but no official rule definitevely killing the issue of the advanced simple template. This is the reason i necroed it. whereas many of the opinions expressed were correct, the other side happened to be wrong but with only opinions weighing against it. I found the official rule that puts the nail in the coffin and definitively proved it and even myself wrong, and I posted it, so that much is new. Im sorry that this has inconvenieced you, but if you know of a better thread, perhaps you could post a link to it rather than condescending to people who arent as familiar with these forum topics as you are.