It's no different than a repeating crossbow.
You can fire once for every attack action you have. So, if your BAB is 4, you can fire once. If it's 6, you can fire twice (second at -5). If it's 11 you can fire three times (11/6/1) and so on.
Yet another reason I find guns in my fantasy to be a pita.
By RAW I think you are limited to how many attacks your character can perform in one round no matter if you were using a steam-fed gatling gun.
It's no different than a repeating crossbow.
You can fire once for every attack action you have. So, if your BAB is 4, you can fire once. If it's 6, you can fire twice (second at -5). If it's 11 you can fire three times (11/6/1) and so on.
This.
Unless the description of what you're using to deal damage specifically calls out that you get multiple attack rolls, having to roll an attack roll means that you must have an attack in order to 'trigger' it; thus, a gunslinger with a revolver can pull the trigger (make an attack roll) once for each time that his BAB allows it.
Yet another reason I find guns in my fantasy to be a pita.
By RAW I think you are limited to how many attacks your character can perform in one round no matter if you were using a steam-fed gatling gun.
There are no rules for a steam-fed gatling gun.
Personally, I'd treat such a weapon as a Line Weapon, like a dragon's breath line weapon.
So complaining about 'you only get one attack even if using a steam-fed gatling gun' is kind of disingenuous, given there's no rules for it. Nor are there rules for casting a Magic Missile spell that fires 100 rounds in 6 seconds. Guns have nothing to do with that, it has to do with the system not being built for such types of attacks, whether magic or otherwise.
Yet another reason I find guns in my fantasy to be a pita.
By RAW I think you are limited to how many attacks your character can perform in one round no matter if you were using a steam-fed gatling gun.
There are no rules for a steam-fed gatling gun.
Personally, I'd treat such a weapon as a Line Weapon, like a dragon's breath line weapon.
So complaining about 'you only get one attack even if using a steam-fed gatling gun' is kind of disingenuous, given there's no rules for it. Nor are there rules for casting a Magic Missile spell that fires 100 rounds in 6 seconds. Guns have nothing to do with that, it has to do with the system not being built for such types of attacks, whether magic or otherwise.
Magic is part of the game, not the real world, so rules around magic are completely arbitrary and defensible from a game design perspective. Rules that allow revolvers to exist but don't allow a gunslinger to pull the trigger six times in six seconds are in direct opposition to recognizable reality.
That's actually an important thing to some of us when it comes to verisimilitude.
Magic is part of the game, not the real world, so rules around magic are completely arbitrary and defensible from a game design perspective. Rules that allow revolvers to exist but don't allow a gunslinger to pull the trigger six times in six seconds are in direct opposition to recognizable reality.
That's actually an important thing to some of us when it comes to verisimilitude.
So do you hold the same problem with the fact that a character, no matter how strong or dexterous, can't swing a single sword two or three times at 1st level, even though swinging a sword two or three times in six seconds can be easily done (depending on sword weight, etc.)?
[edit]
I'm not trying to be snarky, I just see this as a somewhat disingenuous statement. Can a person fire a revolver once a second? Yes, if they're trained for it - and without lots of training, their accuracy will be horrible.
The same is true with someone wielding a lighter one-handed weapon, though - they should be able to swing it more than once in a round even at first level (without feats), but the rules do not allow it.
So do you hold the same problem with the fact that a character, no matter how strong or dexterous, can't swing a single sword two or three times at 1st level, even though swinging a sword two or three times in six seconds can be easily done (depending on sword weight, etc.)?Magic is part of the game, not the real world, so rules around magic are completely arbitrary and defensible from a game design perspective. Rules that allow revolvers to exist but don't allow a gunslinger to pull the trigger six times in six seconds are in direct opposition to recognizable reality.
That's actually an important thing to some of us when it comes to verisimilitude.
I suppose you don't subscribe to the long-held explanation that an "attack" with a sword is a representation of one successful thrust that has managed to avoid deflection or countering in a six second long series of maneuver and counter-maneuver that has involved several sword swings.
In that model the iterative attack is explained as a character getting better so that more of his maneuvers successfully "attack" the target, not necessarily that he's swinging the sword "faster" or "more times".
Now I'm an old grognard and that explanation of melee combat only goes back 30 years or so, so I can understand why you might not subscribe to that.
How is that comparable to pointing your gun, pulling the trigger and saying "pew, pew, pew!"?
If you want to say it's several attempts to hit with a sword (which by the way, is not in any way shape or form even hinted at in the rules, and is entirely a house rule) then just do the same with the gun.
The revolver empties every round and requires reloading, you fired off 5-6 rounds, but only one of them hit (if any), because you're not very good at shooting. As you level up, more of your attempts hit.
And by the way, how does your real world logic conniption fit have no issue with a repeating crossbow that acts just like the revolver? It's just pulling back on a lever, yet somehow despite your dex and/or str not going up much, your ability to pull that lever back increases as you level up.
So much for versamillitude.
Oh, and don't know about you, but when I go to the gun range, I don't point the gun and pull the trigger 'pew pew pew' and expect to hit the target.
I expect to fire, correct recoil, fire, correct recoil, fire, correct recoil. And when I first started firing weapons, I fired, looked, corrected my aim, fired again. In other words, I took time to correct my aim and see what I did between shots, cause I wanted to actually hit the target, not fire off in random directions. As I got better with the gun (went up in level) I could aim/fire/correct recoil/aim/fire/correct recoil faster.
Actually the process of loading a repeating crossbow is something that you could plausibly argue you get much better at with practice as you learn exactly how to brace the crossbow, position your body and apply leverage to the effort.
Pulling a trigger is just.... pulling a trigger.
And if you want to say that you're shooting all six cylinders each attack, that's fine with me too. You're just going to have to spend more time reloading.
And as I recall the explanation for melee combat actually was written into the rules when I started playing this game. Whether PF adopted that explictly or not, I'd guess that the vast majority of players who have played since the 80s accept that as a reasonable explanation of the mechanics of melee combat.
So do you hold the same problem with the fact that a character, no matter how strong or dexterous, can't swing a single sword two or three times at 1st level, even though swinging a sword two or three times in six seconds can be easily done (depending on sword weight, etc.)?Magic is part of the game, not the real world, so rules around magic are completely arbitrary and defensible from a game design perspective. Rules that allow revolvers to exist but don't allow a gunslinger to pull the trigger six times in six seconds are in direct opposition to recognizable reality.
That's actually an important thing to some of us when it comes to verisimilitude.
I suppose you don't subscribe to the long-held explanation that an "attack" with a sword is a representation of one successful thrust that has managed to avoid deflection or countering in a six second long series of maneuver and counter-maneuver that has involved several sword swings.
In that model the iterative attack is explained as a character getting better so that more of his maneuvers successfully "attack" the target, not necessarily that he's swinging the sword "faster" or "more times".
Now I'm an old grognard and that explanation of melee combat only goes back 30 years or so, so I can understand why you might not subscribe to that.
How is that comparable to pointing your gun, pulling the trigger and saying "pew, pew, pew!"?
Perhaps because early revolvers could be highly inaccurate, even at close range?
If that isn't enough, then we can couple it with the fact that actions in combat occur simultaneously, so just as the swordsman is thrusting multiple times and only delivering one solid blow, the gunslinger has to take time to account for wind and recoil, attempt to line up a shot at an area on his target that will deal the most damage, while also guarding himself from potential ranged attacks and keeping a general eye on the battlefield - all of which can be prohibitively difficult when you consider that the target itself is probably in fact moving, and doing the exact same things?
But let's take your example about the idea of the guy swinging the sword multiple times and the attack roll really only covering the one swing that connects. The same can be said for the gunslinger: With all of the above factored in, maybe he is firing six times and only hitting once because of all the combined difficulties related to the situation?
After all, while what you describe is 'sound', it's not exactly RAW - and can easily be applied to justify why a gunslinger can only go "pew" once in a round, and not "pew pew pew".
I don't really care if you're an "old grognard" or even the spiritual reincarnation of Gary Gygax, by the way. I've been gaming for 20 years myself, but that doesn't automatically lend any credence to what I say.
Oh, and don't know about you, but when I go to the gun range, I don't point the gun and pull the trigger 'pew pew pew' and expect to hit the target.
I expect to fire, correct recoil, fire, correct recoil, fire, correct recoil. And when I first started firing weapons, I fired, looked, corrected my aim, fired again. In other words, I took time to correct my aim and see what I did between shots, cause I wanted to actually hit the target, not fire off in random directions. As I got better with the gun (went up in level) I could aim/fire/correct recoil/aim/fire/correct recoil faster.
mdt, I'd love to go to the gun range with you.
I shoot a lot of guns myself. I shoot revolvers, single-shot rifles, pump action shotguns, semi-automatic pistols, semi-automatic rifles....
When I am target shooting I take a lot of time between shots.
When I am practicing self-defense shooting, I pretty much point the gun and go "pew pew pew". Because I want to kill what I'm shooting at before it kills me.
Sort of like, you know, combat with a pistol.
Oh, and don't know about you, but when I go to the gun range, I don't point the gun and pull the trigger 'pew pew pew' and expect to hit the target.
I expect to fire, correct recoil, fire, correct recoil, fire, correct recoil. And when I first started firing weapons, I fired, looked, corrected my aim, fired again. In other words, I took time to correct my aim and see what I did between shots, cause I wanted to actually hit the target, not fire off in random directions. As I got better with the gun (went up in level) I could aim/fire/correct recoil/aim/fire/correct recoil faster.
mdt, I'd love to go to the gun range with you.
I shoot a lot of guns myself. I shoot revolvers, single-shot rifles, pump action shotguns, semi-automatic pistols, semi-automatic rifles....
When I am target shooting I take a lot of time between shots.
When I am practicing self-defense shooting, I pretty much point the gun and go "pew pew pew". Because I want to kill what I'm shooting at before it kills me.
Sort of like, you know, combat with a pistol.
I'm a shooter as well, and I agree with you.
I also think that if ammunition were equivalently expensive in reality to what you pay, even as a gunslinger, in Golarion, then I probably wouldn't be so liberal with my ammunition.
Even if I had unlimited ammunition, I also recognize (from a couple of active self-defense courses where I was required to move rapidly and fire at moving targets) that the same explanation used for swords could be seen to apply to firearms - every attack isn't that likely to connect, especially when you're just 'in training'.
The likelihood why it wasn't included?
Well, if the text did appear in early D&D (and I'll admit I didn't start playing until 3.0) then firearms weren't really accounted for - and it would have made ranged characters incredibly expensive since you would effectively be spending 3-6 rounds of ammunition (bullets or arrows) for every hit (which would have made for a horrendous mechanic).
If you want to say it's several attempts to hit with a sword (which by the way, is not in any way shape or form even hinted at in the rules, and is entirely a house rule) then just do the same with the gun.
The revolver empties every round and requires reloading, you fired off 5-6 rounds, but only one of them hit (if any), because you're not very good at shooting. As you level up, more of your attempts hit.
Of course, that doesn't actually work, since you track ammunition and you aren't firing 5-6 rounds and you don't need to reload.
It's an abstraction. Deal with it.
Or add house rules for penalties for subsequent shots or for firing without taking time to aim or something.
I think Rapid Shot accounts for that.
I agree that it is an abstraction, by the way; I just disagree that it is somehow breaking verisimilitude, any more than the fact that a fighter can only deliver one successful attack a round at 1st level.
mdt, I'd love to go to the gun range with you.I shoot a lot of guns myself. I shoot revolvers, single-shot rifles, pump action shotguns, semi-automatic pistols, semi-automatic rifles....
When I am target shooting I take a lot of time between shots.
When I am practicing self-defense shooting, I pretty much point the gun and go "pew pew pew". Because I want to kill what I'm shooting at before it kills me.
Sort of like, you know, combat with a pistol.
LOL, haven't been in years to be honest. Mostly rifles and shotguns. Never got into handguns. On the other hand, I fired mostly semi-automatic rifles, so the whole 'pew pew pew' method of firing is still pertinent. The most fun I ever had was scaring the heck out of a guy when I was 13, we were firing on the range we had behind our house (hillside partially bulldozed, dirt/stone backdrop). I fired a 22 semi-a rifle 15 times in 3 seconds. Never hit the target even once, but little bits of stone and dirt were raining down on the target area for almost a minute it seemed like, and the boy down the street nearly messed his pants. :)
However, I do know that your method of 'self defense' is actually the worst thing you can do.
A) Just pointing and firing as fast as possible is the worst accuracy you can get, especially in a dangerous situation where your adrenaline is pumping, making you jerky. The recoil will rapidly push the gun up to the point where it's pointing at the ceiling. What you want in a dangerous situation, like a gun fight, is controlled fire. Police and military are trained for controlled fire. If you ever wonder how gang land gun fights can have bullet counts with Mac-10's and Uzi's in the hundreds of rounds with only one or two casualties, that's the reason.
B) Depending on the state you are in, unloading your gun into someone in self defense can actually get you in more trouble. If you unload the clip, it can be argued you were 'emotionally charged' and therefore it wasn't self defense but instead was 'rage'.
mdt, I have a concealed carry permit and have passed a number of gun training and self defense classes.
You simply don't know what you are talking about.
By the way, my "point and shoot" in the training classes was quite lethal. I put three bullets inside three inches in the center of the target's chest the last time I did a class.
And I did it in about one second.
mdt, I have a concealed carry permit and have passed a number of gun training and self defense classes.
You simply don't know what you are talking about.
By the way, my "point and shoot" in the training classes was quite lethal. I put three bullets inside three inches in the center of the target's chest the last time I did a class.
And I did it in about one second.
And what would your equivalent level in gunslinger be when you did that?
You're forgetting that you're talking about a character that has not yet achieved a higher BAB.
When you were first starting out with a gun, had you tried to do the same thing, do you really believe you would have had anywhere near that accuracy consistently?
That said, I'm done with the snark. I could bring up the fact that I have numerous family and friends in law enforcement, and that "controlled burst" of no more than 3 rounds is the standard shooting defense style for all of their agencies, but what's the point? To me it seems like you have a huge beef with firearms in the game\setting (you said as much in your earliest post), and it's coloring every one of your responses.
Have a great day, and good shooting next time you're at the range.
mdt, I have a concealed carry permit and have passed a number of gun training and self defense classes.
You simply don't know what you are talking about.
By the way, my "point and shoot" in the training classes was quite lethal. I put three bullets inside three inches in the center of the target's chest the last time I did a class.
And I did it in about one second.
I have never had a conversation with anyone who has completed a training class, nor with any military officer or police officer who has stated 'oh yeah, you pull the trigger as fast as you can in a combat situation'.
Your 3 bullets in 1 second is quite a bit different than 'pull the trigger as fast as I can'. That's actually 'Controlled Fire'. Controlled Fire is firing small tight short controlled semi-auto bursts, then pausing to reassess, recover recoil, and re-aim if necessary. So, may I suggest that it's not that I do not know what I am talking about, it is that you were less than clear in your first post? You gave the impression of one of those idiotic tv shows where someone goes out a door blazing away as fast as they can with a gun without aiming.
Nobody has said the system is perfect, it badly simulates combat. it always has, it always will. Is the gunfire simulations any worse than the sword or bows/crossbows? No, they're all about equally bad at simulation.
This game is not supposed to be an accurate simulation of reality.
Period. End of story. No further argument necessary.
The Revolver only fires once a round early on because of game balance reasons, and nothing else. Stop arguing about verisimilitude where it doesn't apply.
This game is not supposed to be an accurate simulation of reality.
Period. End of story. No further argument necessary.
The Revolver only fires once a round early on because of game balance reasons, and nothing else. Stop arguing about verisimilitude where it doesn't apply.
Heh. Yeah. I just don't like guns in my RPG, which is sort of ironic since I actually love guns in real life.
I will say that while I can shoot my 9mm that fast and that accurately, I can't shoot my single-action Ruger revolver anything like that. I also have shot my brother's double-action .38 revolver and I can't shoot it that fast and accurate either, the pull of the trigger is too long and moves the gun barrel too much.
But you're right Rynjin. I need to learn how to love the gunslinger... maybe I should play one just to force myself to like it.
This game is not supposed to be an accurate simulation of reality.
Period. End of story. No further argument necessary.
The Revolver only fires once a round early on because of game balance reasons, and nothing else. Stop arguing about verisimilitude where it doesn't apply.
Heh. Yeah. I just don't like guns in my RPG, which is sort of ironic since I actually love guns in real life.
I will say that while I can shoot my 9mm that fast and that accurately, I can't shoot my single-action Ruger revolver anything like that. I also have shot my brother's double-action .38 revolver and I can't shoot it that fast and accurate either, the pull of the trigger is too long and moves the gun barrel too much.
But you're right Rynjin. I need to learn how to love the gunslinger... maybe I should play one just to force myself to like it.
That's an interesting point, and I should have remembered it. The revolvers in the game are almost certainly double action revolvers, given the tech level described. Those are not at all fast to fire. Pulling back the hammer throws off the aim, so it's hammer, aim, fire.
Much different than firing a semi-auto pistol. :)
|
Yet another reason I find guns in my fantasy to be a pita.
By RAW I think you are limited to how many attacks your character can perform in one round no matter if you were using a steam-fed gatling gun.
Automatic Weapon Quality: A weapon with the automatic weapon quality fires a burst of bullets with a single pull of the trigger, attacking all creatures in a line. This line starts from any corner of your space and extends to the limit of the weapon’s range or until it strikes a barrier it cannot penetrate.
When an automatic weapon attacks all creatures in a line, it makes a separate attack roll against each creature in the line. Each creature in the line can only be attacked with one bullet from each burst. Each attack roll takes a –2 penalty to account for recoil, and its attack damage cannot be modified by precision damage or damage-increasing feats such as Vital Strike. Effects that grant concealment, such as fog or smoke, or the blur, invisibility, or mirror image spells, do not foil an automatic weapon’s line attack. If any of the attack rolls threaten a critical hit, confirm the critical for that attack roll alone. An automatic weapon misfires only if all of the attack rolls
made misfire.
A single attack with an automatic weapon fires 10 bullets.
An automatic weapon cannot fire single bullets that target one creature. When taking a full-attack action with an automatic weapon, you can fire as many bursts in a round as you have attacks.
Still a bit meh as you can't mow a line of attacking soldier but only a column or fire multiple bullets against the same target with one attack, but better than nothing.
Yeah mdt, I should have addressed that earlier. Last time I went shooting I deliberately shot my single-action Ruger as fast as I could and my results were rather dismal. Pulling the hammer back forces you to reacquire the target.
By the way, my understanding is that single-action means you pull the hammer back and double-action means that the trigger pulls the hammer back for you.
Yeah mdt, I should have addressed that earlier. Last time I went shooting I deliberately shot my single-action Ruger as fast as I could and my results were rather dismal. Pulling the hammer back forces you to reacquire the target.
By the way, my understanding is that single-action means you pull the hammer back and double-action means that the trigger pulls the hammer back for you.
Nope, you're correct. That's me trying to post while working. :) Reverse the double/single comments I made earlier. :)
|
|
Yet another reason I find guns in my fantasy to be a pita.
By RAW I think you are limited to how many attacks your character can perform in one round no matter if you were using a steam-fed gatling gun.
There are no rules for a steam-fed gatling gun.
Personally, I'd treat such a weapon as a Line Weapon, like a dragon's breath line weapon.
So complaining about 'you only get one attack even if using a steam-fed gatling gun' is kind of disingenuous, given there's no rules for it. Nor are there rules for casting a Magic Missile spell that fires 100 rounds in 6 seconds. Guns have nothing to do with that, it has to do with the system not being built for such types of attacks, whether magic or otherwise.
Magic is part of the game, not the real world, so rules around magic are completely arbitrary and defensible from a game design perspective. Rules that allow revolvers to exist but don't allow a gunslinger to pull the trigger six times in six seconds are in direct opposition to recognizable reality.
That's actually an important thing to some of us when it comes to verisimilitude.
I think you forget a word in that phrase "efficiently". I could probably pull the trigger of a automatic pistol six times in six seconds or even more. Putting those shots even remotely in the target area is another matter.
I think you forget a word in that phrase "efficiently". I could probably pull the trigger of a automatic pistol six times in six seconds or even more. Putting those shots even remotely in the target area is another matter.
Diego, I'm not a professional target shooter, and I can do pretty well with six shots in six seconds. That's plenty of time to even re-aim between shots if you have to.
You may not be able to light a match at 30 yards with that approach, but I can damn well guarantee you that at 20 feet I could hit a man's chest with just about every single shot.
|
|
I think you forget a word in that phrase "efficiently". I could probably pull the trigger of a automatic pistol six times in six seconds or even more. Putting those shots even remotely in the target area is another matter.
Diego, I'm not a professional target shooter, and I can do pretty well with six shots in six seconds. That's plenty of time to even re-aim between shots if you have to.
You may not be able to light a match at 30 yards with that approach, but I can damn well guarantee you that at 20 feet I could hit a man's chest with just about every single shot.
You have taken self defense courses and trained with pistols and revolvers, I haven't. I am fist level, you aren't.
You have taken self defense courses and trained with pistols and revolvers, I haven't. I am fist level, you aren't.
There was an interesting study about self-defense shooting accuracy done back a few decades ago. I can't provide a link, I just remember the story and the results.
It turns out that people using a pistol for the first time in a self-defense situation actually out-performed people who had some experience shooting a gun. The inexperienced shooters tended to just point and shoot reflexively which put more bullets on target than the casual shooter who tended to try to aim and fire. In fact to overcome that tendency and outperform the reflexive shooter took significant training in combat situations.
Sometimes reflex and reaction is a good thing.
I want to go to a gun range and watch somebody point their gun and then actually say "pew pew pew". That sounds awesome.
You have taken self defense courses and trained with pistols and revolvers, I haven't. I am fist level, you aren't.
Ah, but he'd need to be at least sixth level for getting a second attack... last time I checked the prevalent opinion on this forum was that Level 6 was solidly into superhuman abilities, as 'Gandalf, Aragorn and the like can all be built as Level 5'
*scnr*
If your gunslinger has a revolver, can't their "fanning the hammer" (or whatever) by represented in the game with Rapid Shot/Manyshot feats etc? I suppose you could make firearm versions of the Feats if necessary?