
Wind Chime |
Is the Kitsune's +6 to Enchantment DC's at level 20 broken (+5 fc +1 racial trait) or does the fact that large number of enemies have immunities to mind affecting spells mitigate this. A 4th level kitsune with the fey bloodline and two feats in enchantment focus will have a DC of 23 on his hideous laughter.
A Kitsune of level 20 with spell perfection, magical knack and focus spell will have a DC of between 40-45 on his dominate monster spell which will probably be persistent or bouncing via metamagic rods.

Cerberus Seven |

Spell perfection would only double spell focus and other bonuses that come from feats. So, the racial bonus, favored class bonuses, and the bloodline bonus would give a +8 total (for compulsion spells only) but not be doubled. Magical Knack doesn't increase your caster level above your character level, so I don't think that's a concern. Whether or not focused spell gets the +2 doubled from spell perfection is an interesting question.
But no, doesn't seem to be overpowered when a simple Protection from Evil can stop this.

Driver 325 yards |
Well, you would not use the ability against those that are immune to the ability. They should be taken out of the discussion.
So, you have a situational ability that will, nonetheless, happen often enough to be useful. When it applies, the casual build will fail the will save a very high percentage of the time. When they fail it is an autowin.
If you GM is putting you up against other optimized characters, it is probably okay. If you have a casual GM, your build will probably be broken to them.
I guess I am saying that broken is manytimes relative.
So, what normally happens when you run the character in your GM's campaigns

Wind Chime |
Well, you can't take the immune out of the equation completely.
If you're doing carrion crown, you've mainly made a fancy commoner. If you're doing rotrl, then it might seem OP as you turn 80% of what you fight into your sock puppets
Well assuming you pick up the Undead Meta-Magic it shouldn't be too bad in Carrion Crow, you will just be relying on spells that are two levels weaker than they should be (less with the right traits). Though the game will be pretty punishing between 1-7 but not too bad when you consider that you are still a high charisma sourcer.

lemeres |

Oh, I came into this thinking of entirely different mechanics when someone said that race was broken. I thought this was going to be about how Realisitc Likeness, which could be taken from level one, is basically a quickened alter-self that is at will for the purposes of being disguised. That means that they can round a corner and lose their pursuers instantly.
Also, they get their own form of pounce, which can make them very deadly.
Overall, I was approaching from a 'ninja' perspective. But the enchantment issue is also very important. Essentially, are they broken when it comes to being sneaky and manipulative? I would imagine that most important enemies would either have a mind, or at least rely on someone that does (evil priest doing the summoning their mindless bug-god, wizard commanding a golem, necromancer, etc)

Damocles Guile |

As is often the case with these concerns, the Kitsune Sorcerer isn't broken - she's just specialized. She'll be highly effective in some situations and of limited effectiveness in others.
Think about a Fighter dealing ungodly amounts of damage but vulnerable to a Will-targeted spell. Highly effective in some situations and of limited use (possibly even a danger) in others. Same-same. Let's also not forget the need to work around Spell Resistance (which I hate as a mechanic) as well as Saving Throws.
We have one in our group which has just recently kicked off a RothRL reboot and she's working out well... sufering from the usual limitations of low-level casters but still. [Actually, her character name is Llira and another PC is running a Goblin Brawler named 'Stitch' who was charmed in the opening sequence and it never quite wore off. They've got a great 'Llira and Stitch' thing going on right now.
Personally, with the high DC bonuses Kitsune already get, I'd reccomend the Sylvan variant, passing up laughing touch and the +2 Echantment DC's of the Fey Bloodline for an animal companion. Better survivability and more usefulness when facing those resistant or immune to mind-affecting spells.

Damocles Guile |

Oh, I came into this thinking of entirely different mechanics when someone said that race was broken. I thought this was going to be about how Realisitc Likeness, which could be taken from level one, is basically a quickened alter-self that is at will for the purposes of being disguised. That means that they can round a corner and lose their pursuers instantly.
This is a much-overlooked ability of Kitsune that makes them a lot of fun to play IMO.

Ashiel |

Is the Kitsune's +6 to Enchantment DC's at level 20 broken (+5 fc +1 racial trait) or does the fact that large number of enemies have immunities to mind affecting spells mitigate this. A 4th level kitsune with the fey bloodline and two feats in enchantment focus will have a DC of 23 on his hideous laughter.
A Kitsune of level 20 with spell perfection, magical knack and focus spell will have a DC of between 40-45 on his dominate monster spell which will probably be persistent or bouncing via metamagic rods.
Yes, it is broken. It is either wildly overpowered or wholly ineffectual. There's not much in between. If it's vulnerable then you basically own it. If it's not then you don't cast it and choose a different spell. If your GM has to adjust the campaign to send more and more creatures immune to it against you, then you have wiped out huge swaths of potential enemies (which in turn allows you or your party to further optimize against those things that are immune to it).
Paizo nerfed the protection from alignment spells hardcore. If you are a Neutral-aligned Kitsune, there is no defense against these spells until mind-blank comes along and at that point you're just getting a bonus to the saving throw that is already more than +8 out of your league.

Atarlost |
The kitsune isn't the problem. The enchantment school is broken. The best any non-enchantment can do is remove one opponent or add some weak allies. Enchantment can turn a strong opponent into a strong ally.
Balance through immunity, or any binary balance mechanic, doesn't work. Either the thing so balanced is overpowered or underpowered, never just right. Kitsune shifts the balance, but the fundamentally broken thing is the enchantment school. +6 over 20 levels to saves on something less fundamentally broken like evocation would be nice, but not the end of the world. Well, until combined with other broken things like dazing metamagic.

Ashiel |

The kitsune isn't the problem. The enchantment school is broken. The best any non-enchantment can do is remove one opponent or add some weak allies. Enchantment can turn a strong opponent into a strong ally.
Balance through immunity, or any binary balance mechanic, doesn't work. Either the thing so balanced is overpowered or underpowered, never just right. Kitsune shifts the balance, but the fundamentally broken thing is the enchantment school. +6 over 20 levels to saves on something less fundamentally broken like evocation would be nice, but not the end of the world. Well, until combined with other broken things like dazing metamagic.
Heh, indeed. -30% chance to save is pretty horrible to matter what school of magic we're talking about. The only exception is if it's a school that has no real need for save DCs. -30% chance to save against...abjuration spells? Okay, that'd probably be pretty pointless. :P
Well...except I think spells like dismissal and banishment are abjuration. So even then it'd powerful in the right context.
I myself don't mind most enchantment effects. The charm spells grant a +5 on saves against them in combat (making them a very high-risk spell), and both charm and dominate have all manner of hoops you have to deal with to get proper control over the victim.
But +6 to the DC of anything is excessive. Like the OP noted, DC 23 hideous laughter at 4th level is basically going to steamroll anything vulnerable to it at the levels it's attainable. :P