Armor as DR does exist, but it faces problems in pathinder/3.x. And it has to do with the way numbers scale in the game. Those other systems work because they dont use HP the way pathfinder does. Other systems use a far less abstract damage system.
The way HP abstracts getting 'hit' makes that tough to do. A level 1 goblin does like 4 damage a hit. A big stompy monster can do like 100 damage in one hit at high levels. The fighter is probably wearing the same armor in both cases. How do you scale that? And how do you do it without invalidating the guy who doesnt do 1 big hit, but 5 smaller ones. I honestly dont have a solid answer except possibly retooling the whole combat and hp system.
Yeah and that's why I would not recommand using the armor as DR subsystem in any system (Pathfinder included) that was not designed from the ground up around it. But could you name me a few systems where armor as DR works in a elegant way so that I could check them out?
But, going back to the original question, you're still not as vulnerable as that 1st level character. A blow or two, even from an untrained enemy, is likely to drop the 1st level character. Even if the 20th level fighter doesn't strike back, that same enemy will have to hack at him for a long time to do any serious damage.
No question you're not as vunerable. That's absoluelty true but to me it's not a question how long it takes to drop me. It's a question of how likely is it that someone with no training what so ever (a first level commoner if you like) can deal damage to me at all.
If I can't get out of the way and he hits me for so much as one point of damage that's still one point of damage that has to, one way or another be healed.
He hit me causing me to need healing.
Whenever you watch a show and it's chumps vs the hero the hero usualy walks away without a scratch. My contention is that pathfinder models this poorly and it's something I'd like to see modeled better.
- Torger
P.S. as stated previously this is all assuming the fighter has no gear. Obviously a properly geared 20th level fighter will be hit, at most 5% of the time by a 1st level commoner, probably less.
Here is an Idea.
All PCs gain a parry bonus to AC equal to their base attack bonus, a parry bonus applies to touch armor class and to flat footed attacks, but not to CMD. to gain a parry bonus, the character must either be wielding a manufactured weapon or possess the improved unarmed strike. a natural weapon (such as a claw or fang) can never be used to qualify for a parry bonus to AC
Armor and Shields instead of Granting an AC bonus, grant an amount of DRx/- equal to the sum of their total AC, including bonuses from feats and magical enhancements, natural armor and deflection bonuses still apply to AC as do similar bonuses. for example, a character with shield focus, a +1 heavy shield and +2 set of full plate would have DR 15/- (9 base for full plate, 2 for full plate enhancement, 2 for heavy shield base, 1 for heavy shield enhancement, and 1 for shield focus, a 20th level attacker with 18 dexterity and 16 wisdom would ignore 7 points of this damage reduction for example.)
for
PCs wielding light melee manufactured weapons ignore an amount of DR equal to their dexterity bonus+their wisdom bonus due to their ability to both spot gaps in armor, and strike said gaps. this bonus also applies to unarmed strikes made by characters with the improved unarmed strike feat.
The trick is to make an improved defence mechanic, that isn't even crunchier.
This may be little off-topic, but i actually love AC system. Unlike almost all PC games and systems where armor reduces amount of damage you take AC is making it so you ether take damage or you dont. It seems to make more sense as in combat you got sword in your side or it just slides against your armor (or you dodge it/magic deflects it), its not like sword slices thru armor but deals 3 points less of slashing damage because you have that armor - if it does then armor would definately suffer from such thing (and we have sunder manuever for this).
The amount of force behind many medieval weapons (often designed to go through armour) meant that armour did not just protect and glance off everything. Bruising, broken bones, pieces of armour driven into wounds (bits of chain and leather), armour was a great idea but if you cop something heavy at speed, ouch. All that padding under heavy armour was there to protect the soft little mammal from the force and power of being hit (the results varied).
I prefer armour as DR systems, but with being hit determined by an attack roll beating a defence roll. With attack and defence systems, you can also eliminate damage rolling entirely--they are damaged based on how well and the extent to which they were hit (just hit a graze, hit by a great deal a major or mortal blow) So none of this hit ac by over ten and minimum damage, or crit and then a measly roll. There are a lot of merits to not doing it the 3.0-PF way (yes a loyalist just typed that).
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Yeah and that's why I would not recommand using the armor as DR subsystem in any system (Pathfinder included) that was not designed from the ground up around it. But could you name me a few systems where armor as DR works in a elegant way so that I could check them out?Armor as DR does exist, but it faces problems in pathinder/3.x. And it has to do with the way numbers scale in the game. Those other systems work because they dont use HP the way pathfinder does. Other systems use a far less abstract damage system.
The way HP abstracts getting 'hit' makes that tough to do. A level 1 goblin does like 4 damage a hit. A big stompy monster can do like 100 damage in one hit at high levels. The fighter is probably wearing the same armor in both cases. How do you scale that? And how do you do it without invalidating the guy who doesnt do 1 big hit, but 5 smaller ones. I honestly dont have a solid answer except possibly retooling the whole combat and hp system.
The one that comes to mind is Fantasy Flight's Star Wars Edge of the empire. There is something called 'Soak' which absorbs wounds instead of taking them, and armor adds to that. But it doesnt change the attachers chances of 'success' (hitting). But in that game a big hit might deal like 5 or 6 wounds, so 3-5 'soak' is a big deal.
Um, no it didnt. The triple HP at level one was there to make it possible to play the game at level 1. Weapons in saga edition (for good reason) do a TON of damage. A typical blaster does 3d8 damage on a hit without addint anything to it. One feat and it does 4d8 damage. A vibro axe does 2d10+1.5strength + half your level, add a feat and it does 3d10+1.5strength plus half your level. A gamorian, at 1st level could be doing 3d12+7 damage with 1 feat and a racially available melee weapon. You are just as vulnerable in saga edition as you are in pathfinder at 1st level, the numbers are just higher.
I disagree. Yes you had high weapon damage die but that's not everything. Coupled with built-in force points(basically hero points for those not familiar), the million and a half means of mitigating damage, second winds(once per day half healing), alternative healing(powers, surgery) character survivability is through the roof. I Gm' d a game for 3 years, took a load of work to kill anyone, bloated numbers or not.
I disagree. Yes you had high weapon damage die but that's not everything. Coupled with built-in force points(basically hero points for those not familiar), the million and a half means of mitigating damage, second winds(once per day half healing), alternative healing(powers, surgery) character survivability is through the roof. I Gm' d a game for 3 years, took a load of work to kill anyone, bloated numbers or not.
First and foremost I was responding to your suggestion that the 30 hp for Jedi and Soliders at first level (which was 18 for everyone else) does not increase survivability in that game. If anything, hp is at a much greater premium at low levels in that game then in standard dnd/pathfinder.
Force points can be spent to keep you alive, but your hp can very rapidly disappear at low levels because of the afformentioned high weapon damage. 1 gamorian or 1 storm troops can easily wipe out that 30+con in 1 or 2 hits let alone the 18+con. And saying there are more ways to mitigate damage in that game then there are in pathfinder is fairly laughable.
In terms of in combat healing, yes everyone has a second wind, but there is exactly one power that can heal quickly, the force healing power, which in my experience was rarely taken by jedi already stetching in 3 directions by their abilities. Compare that to the number of ways you can get access to cure spells in pathfinder and you can see there is alot less immediate (in combat) healing in sage then there is in pathfinder.
At low levels at least it didnt take much work at all to drop someone, kill maybe not because of force points, but we had people dropping unconcious in that game far more frequently then we do in pathfinder.
First and foremost I was responding to your suggestion that the 30 hp for Jedi and Soliders at first level (which was 18 for everyone else) does not increase survivability in that game. If anything, hp is at a much greater premium at low levels in that game then in standard dnd/pathfinder.
Force points can be spent to keep you alive, but your hp can very rapidly disappear at low levels because of the afformentioned high weapon damage. 1 gamorian or 1 storm troops can easily wipe out that 30+con in 1 or 2 hits let alone the 18+con. And saying there are more ways to mitigate damage in that game then there are in pathfinder is fairly laughable.
In terms of in combat healing, yes everyone has a second wind, but there is exactly one power that can heal quickly, the force healing power, which in my experience was rarely taken by jedi already stetching in 3 directions by their abilities. Compare that to the number of ways you can get access to cure spells in pathfinder and you can see there is alot less immediate (in combat) healing in sage then there is in pathfinder.
At low levels at least it didnt take much work at all to drop someone, kill maybe not because of force points, but we had people dropping unconcious in that game far more frequently then we do in pathfinder.
I still disagree. Npcs Don't add half level without without heroic class levels, so an average 3d8 bolt bolt hit for ~13, wasn't that bad. Yeah loads of heroic baddies added damage, but when literally dozens of reactionary abilities allowed you to heal/negate/reduce damage, the numbers are manageable.
Healing was so easy to obtain. Yes there's only 1 power(two really) but you have as many powers(spells) per encounter as you you choose to have. On a 20 check you get all of them back, and the only requirement for "casting" is a single feat. Basically, you were always at full health between combats, so even falling unconscious meant very little. And in non force games, you had dozens of feats and abilities that give you multiple 2nd winds.
Now, saga had its issues, namely class imbalances, scarcity of splat books, constant misspellings and stat block issues, but being a cut throat system was not one of them. Imo anyways.