Rapid / Snap Shot and throwing weapons


Rules Questions


Gang,

Does any weapon with a range increment intended for throwing, like a dagger, count as a ranged weapon for the purposes of the Rapid Shot and Snap Shot feats?

Grand Lodge

Yes, but if it's already a melee weapon as well, then why would you need Snap Shot?


Snap Shot would extend the range at which I could potentially produce attacks of opportunity with a dagger, if daggers count as ranged weapons for the purposes of that feat.

Is there a place where you've read this clarification? I'm concerned, since dagger is listed under the melee charts. Are all weapons with range increments considered ranged weapons by default?

Grand Lodge

Only Improved Snapshot would do that.

Snap Shot would allow you to threaten 5ft with the selected ranged weapon.

Thing is, the Dagger is already a melee weapon, that threatens 5ft.

So, the feat really does nothing for you.

This would be different with a, say, a Bow.

Bows don't usually threaten.


Wyrmfoe wrote:

Snap Shot would extend the range at which I could potentially produce attacks of opportunity with a dagger, if daggers count as ranged weapons for the purposes of that feat.

Is there a place where you've read this clarification? I'm concerned, since dagger is listed under the melee charts. Are all weapons with range increments considered ranged weapons by default?

From the PRD (core book reference, in this case):

Weapons - Melee and Ranged weapons wrote:
Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.

So as long as the feat specifies only a ranged weapon, and not specifically projectile weapon or a specific type of projectile weapon (like a bow, or a gun), then it will work with a thrown weapon (unless it states otherwise).

Silver Crusade

Xaratherus wrote:

From the PRD (core book reference, in this case):

Weapons - Melee and Ranged weapons wrote:
Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.
So as long as the feat specifies only a ranged weapon, and not specifically projectile weapon or a specific type of projectile weapon (like a bow, or a gun), then it will work with a thrown weapon (unless it states otherwise).

I believe that quote from the PRD means that a dagger is a melee weapon that can be thrown, and not a ranged weapon:

Ranged weapons are thrown weapons ... that are not effective in melee.


DesolateHarmony wrote:
Xaratherus wrote:

From the PRD (core book reference, in this case):

Weapons - Melee and Ranged weapons wrote:
Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.
So as long as the feat specifies only a ranged weapon, and not specifically projectile weapon or a specific type of projectile weapon (like a bow, or a gun), then it will work with a thrown weapon (unless it states otherwise).

I believe that quote from the PRD means that a dagger is a melee weapon that can be thrown, and not a ranged weapon:

Ranged weapons are thrown weapons ... that are not effective in melee.

By that argument, it would be impossible to offset the penalty for throwing daggers, throwing axes, javelins, etc. into a melee, because they're all effective as melee weapons (perhaps not proficient for it, but still usable) - because Precise Shot (which specifically calls out as applying to thrown weapons) has a prerequisite of Point-Blank Shot, (which only states 'ranged weapons').

Sczarni

You could also skip Rapid Shot and go TWF. I still don't see what Snap Shot does for you - as BBT pointed out, you already threaten 5' with a thrown weapon. You don't just jump to 10'...

I think TWF may be the better choice to Rapid Shot as you can only use RS while throwing... You need QuickDraw to make either work well though.

Scarab Sages

Because if he qualifies for Snap Shot, eventually he'll qualify for Improved Snap Shot? But if the weapon doesn't qualify for Snap Shot, it won't ever qualify for Improved Snap Shot.

Also, if he's built a character around throwing daggers, chances are it'll be better at tha than at using them in melee. If he can throw a dagger as an AoO, he can use Point Blank Shot, Deadly Aim, his Dex bonus to hit, etc. I can see that being beneficial for some builds.

The Exchange

What about an alchemist's bomb or splash weapon?


First, thank you all for the comments thus far. They've helped me puzzle through quite a few different ideas.

As for why I'm looking at Snap Shot, Ferious Thune has it pegged: I'm interested in Improved Snap Shot. The imagery of a dagger wielding rogue, centered on throwing weapons and able to all kinds of cinematic tricks, seems pretty appealing and thematically appropriate.

So, is the consensus that the Rapid/Snap Shot line should work for thrown weapons?

Also, given this feedback, what do you think of the idea? Are there other feats I should also consider (Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Close-Quarters Thrower, etc.)


My opinion is that yes, they should work. I read the text to mean that 'thrown weapon' is a type of ranged weapon.

As to other feats, you will definitely want PBS and Precise Shot; you'll want to negate the penalty for throwing into a melee (especially if the GM rules that missing on such a throw has the potential to hit another target in the melee - most likely your ally).


I don't remember what proficiency is required but bolas are especially fun

Made a thrown weapon expert once that had improved snap shot...quickdrawing a bola against someone that tries to run is cinematically hilarious

Also is this is a home game see if your GM would let you use the Master Thrower PrC...think it's 3.5 but google it and it comes up fast

Sczarni

Okay. So if that's the plan here are some things you will need to consider;

1. It's hard to get Sneak Attack @ range. A DEX based throwing Ranger or Fighter may be more worth considering... Or at least dipping...

2. Trait: River Rat: this trait gives you a +1 damage with daggers. This stacks with other boni, and the best part is it applies to both hands (of-hand attacks typically suffer from half STR mod).

3. Point Blank Shot & Precise Shot. Not only is PBS a +1 to hit & damage, it's a prerequisite for Rapid Shot, Snap Shot & Improved SS. Precise Shot: Unless you want to eat -4 penalty any time you throw a dagger at an enemy engaged in melee, you need this feat. As soon as possible.

4. Flanking. You won't get the benefits of flanking (including your sneak attack) while throwing daggers. But you will get the benefits if you melee (which brings us back to TWF).

5. TWF: I have heard it stacks with Rapid Shot. But that's a lot of penalties. There could be situations when you can use both.

6. Archetypes: if you do go Rogue you should look at Scout & Knifemaster archetypes. Not saying its the way to go, but they both have features that work with the concept.

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