Weapon benefits when not proficient?

[Atticus Blackstone]

Tried to look for an answer in the forums and rulebook but couldn't find anything...

Let's say you use a weapon like the Dan Bong from UC. It's an exotic weapon that does 1D3, has range, blocking, etc. The text is the following:

Quote:

These short, blunt sticks are held in the hands to enhance unarmed martial techniques.

Benefit: They provide the wielder with the ability to lock an opponent and target pressure points that grant her a +2 bonus on her combat maneuver to grapple.

Also, looking at Exotic Weapon Proficiency (EWP), it says:

Quote:

Choose one type of exotic weapon, such as the spiked chain or whip. You understand how to use that type of exotic weapon in combat, and can utilize any special tricks or qualities that exotic weapon might allow.

Benefit: You make attack rolls with the weapon normally.
Normal: A character who uses a weapon with which he is not proficient takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls.

My question is... Can you use it without being proficient (without EWP) and still get the +2 to grapple? The flavour text from EWP says you need the feat to "utilize any special tricks or qualities", so I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be able to use the "blocking or monk" properties but what about a benefit listed in the description of the weapon? I am confused with terms like special tricks, qualities and special weapon features (if they're all the same or not).

[ShadowcatX]

I've never thought about it before. I'd probably let them keep the +2 to grapple assuming that the "Choose one type of exotic weapon, such as the spiked chain or whip. You understand how to use that type of exotic weapon in combat, and can utilize any special tricks or qualities that exotic weapon might allow." is meant to be fluff rather than rules text. Besides, the +2 is only offsetting half the -4 penalty, they'll still be worse off than if they used a weapon with which they were proficient.

[Atticus Blackstone]

I think a character would take the -4 to hit if he makes an attack with it (1D3 dmg!), but I am not sure he would when using a combat maneuver (grapple). Is the character attacking with the weapon or simply using it as part of a combat maneuver? Also, I just found this:

Quote:

Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll. If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition.

Aside from the fact that having a penalty for not having to free hands using a grappling weapon seems weird and counterproductive, would the character have...

-8 to grapple? (non-proficient, no benefit from wp, no empty hands)
-6 to grapple? (non-proficient, no empty hands, but benefits)
-4 to grapple? (non-proficient, disregarding stupid empty hands rule in this case, no benefits)
-2 to grapple? (non-proficient, disregarding stupid empty hands rule in this case, benefits applied)
+0 to grapple? (you gain nothing but a tsk tsk from your GM for attempting to gain a lame +2 to your grapple check)
+2 to grapple(benefit only, with the tsk tsk from your GM but he can't do anything because the rules back you up)

[shroudb]

the way the particual weapon is designed (going around the thumb and etc) it seems to indicate that it leaves your hand "open" enough to grapple with 2 free hands.

on the other hand, if you are not proficient and you try to use this weapon to grapple, then you get +2 for it's property, and -4 for not proficeint, for a net loss of -2.

you can either "use" an item and gain both it's benefits and drawbacks, or don't use and gain none. I wouldn't allow to use it and gain only the benefits but not the drawbacks.

[ShadowcatX]

Atticus Blackstone wrote:

I think a character would take the -4 to hit if he makes an attack with it (1D3 dmg!), but I am not sure he would when using a combat maneuver (grapple). Is the character attacking with the weapon or simply using it as part of a combat maneuver?

Combat Maneuvers require attack rolls, and thus take non-profiency penalties when done with a non-profient weapon.

Quote:

Also, I just found this:

Quote:

Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll. If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition.

Aside from the fact that having a penalty for not having to free hands using a grappling weapon seems weird and counterproductive, would the character have...

-8 to grapple? (non-proficient, no benefit from wp, no empty hands)
-6 to grapple? (non-proficient, no empty hands, but benefits)
-4 to grapple? (non-proficient, disregarding stupid empty hands rule in this case, no benefits)
-2 to grapple? (non-proficient, disregarding stupid empty hands rule in this case, benefits applied)
+0 to grapple? (you gain nothing but a tsk tsk from your GM for attempting to gain a lame +2 to your grapple check)
+2 to grapple(benefit only, with the tsk tsk from your GM but he can't do anything because the rules back you up)

Given that this weapon is specially made for grappling, I'd say it is safe to assume that the -4 penalty for no open hands wouldn't apply. (I'd say that is more for grappling someone while holding a sword and shield, but without the context in which you found the rule it is impossible to say for sure. Context matters!)

[Atticus Blackstone]

Is there an actual rule about not having any penalties using a grapple weapon even if you don't have free hands?

Lot's of "I'd say" and "I think", but I'd like something more solid than that...

[Cerberus Seven]

Atticus Blackstone wrote:

Tried to look for an answer in the forums and rulebook but couldn't find anything...

Let's say you use a weapon like the Dan Bong from UC. It's an exotic weapon that does 1D3, has range, blocking, etc. The text is the following:

Quote:

These short, blunt sticks are held in the hands to enhance unarmed martial techniques.

Benefit: They provide the wielder with the ability to lock an opponent and target pressure points that grant her a +2 bonus on her combat maneuver to grapple.

Also, looking at Exotic Weapon Proficiency (EWP), it says:

Quote:

Choose one type of exotic weapon, such as the spiked chain or whip. You understand how to use that type of exotic weapon in combat, and can utilize any special tricks or qualities that exotic weapon might allow.

Benefit: You make attack rolls with the weapon normally.
Normal: A character who uses a weapon with which he is not proficient takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls.

My question is... Can you use it without being proficient (without EWP) and still get the +2 to grapple? The flavour text from EWP says you need the feat to "utilize any special tricks or qualities", so I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be able to use the "blocking or monk" properties but what about a benefit listed in the description of the weapon? I am confused with terms like special tricks, qualities and special weapon features (if they're all the same or not).

A weapon 'quality' is something like reach, deadly, brace, or trip. If you're not proficient, you don't get those benefits. I have nothing hard to back this up with, but it makes sense. How would know how to use a swordbreaker dagger (basically a sai, I believe) to sunder a bladed weapon without knowing how and when to twist it, for example?

[Rocky Williams 530]

I wouldn't allow even the +2 to grapple. It comes from knowing how to use the weapon. Without exotic weapon proficiency, you don't know how to use the weapon properly. If you're the GM, make the call yourself. If you think it won't hurt your game, let them use it. If it will, don't let it happen. If you're the player, ask your GM if they'll let you get around a required feat like that. Seems wrong to me, but it's their game, their decision.

[Atticus Blackstone]

Thanks guys! It's actually for PFS so I just wanted to get some opinions before telling the guy...