UMD question


Rules Questions


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Can I use UMD to emulate an item as a higher level than I currently am? Say I wanted to activate an item as a level 15 sorcerer, even though I'm only level 10. Could I use that item as a level 15 sorcerer if I get a 35 on my UMD check?

Silver Crusade

I think this is the reference you want:

PRD link

PRD wrote:
Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).


Yes, but can you emulate a feature that you already have, just to boost your own level for the purposes of the item?


What he is asking (without saying it) is lets say he gets a staff of whatever which has say Chain Lighting on it.

As a 15th level sorceror he can do 15d6 using the staff as it is.

If he rolls a 45 on his UMD emulating a level 25 sorceror can eh do 25d6 (cap for chain lighting) with the staff.

At least that is what I assume he is asking. My general response would be No because it is OMG BROKEN.... but by RAW it might be legal. If not legal, why not?

BTW this is much worse or at least was much worse with Holy/Unholy word in 3.5 before that spell was nerfed in pathfinder.


What class feature is he emulating


Sorcereor Spell casting.


It would be legal to do so with another class, ie a rogue could use a UMD result of 45 to cast with a chain lightning staff as a caster level 25, but I was asking if a player can emulate something they already have.


I think the RAI is to use something you can't normally use, but the rules don't read that way. I am pressing the FAQ button. :)


Adding onto this, if it is possible, can I use my normal class feature if I fail my check or get lower than my current level on my check?


I would say no, with respect to the staff (I don't know what other examples there are out there). Activating a staff does not require you to be a certain level per se. It requires you to have a certain class ability (i.e. Spell casting).

Of course, a sorcerer already has spell casting. However, let's say a Rogue wanted to emulate spell casting. He could roll a UMD check to see if he can emulate a 1st level sorcerer's spell casting ability, but that would not make him a 1st level caster.


partyrico wrote:
Adding onto this, if it is possible, can I use my normal class feature if I fail my check or get lower than my current level on my check?

Once again, the only value of the check is to gain the class feature. If you already have the class feature then it is pointless. The check does not allow you to emulate the class feature and also treat yourself as a higher level caster.


Maybe I'm reading this wrong?

Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

The answer is yes! You can emulate any class feature needed to activate an item, there is no exclusion of class features that you may already have. It would not be fair that a 10th rogue could activate the staff as a 15th level caster with the same role that a 10th level sorcerer got, but the sorcerer can only activate it at 10th. That is not reasonable, logical, or in any of the rules. If it is good for one, it is good for all even if it smells of cheese.


You also missed this, which is the general rule for the skill.

Quote:
Check: You can use this skill to read a spell or to activate a magic item. Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment.

You are not emulating another class. That supports my last post also.


Ok, if this is withstanding, does this mean an oracle can emulate a ring of revelation to be a higher oracle level than they are? There was another thread about getting BAB above your character level with the ancestral spirit revelation, but what if you emulate say a battle mystery with a check of 36 to get a BAB of 16?


What an odd situation:

"So, somebody else, a non-sorcerer, even a non-spellcaster, can pretend to do what you do, sorcery, and they can pretend to do it way better than you, a sorcerer, can, but you're already are a sorcerer so obviously you cannot pretend to be better at sorcery than all those other non-spellcasting fakers can."

However, by RAW, this may be true:

"Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability ... of another class."

However, I think a clever sorcerer could get around it by using UMD to emulate the spell ability of a Wizard class to ativate his level 25 Chain Lightning staff.

All that said, UMD has lots of different uses, and I think the most important thing to do is select the use that most closely applies to what we're trying to do. UMD has a category for "Use a Wand, Staff, or other spell-trigger item". I think we really must choose that one instead of "Emulate a class feature" because it is the UMD usage that is most appropriate for using a staff. Therefore, the DC should be 20 to use the staff exactly as if you had the spell on your spell list - that doesn't give the ability to emulate higher level, just a flat DC to use the staff at your level, like any other staff user.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
partyrico wrote:
Ok, if this is withstanding, does this mean an oracle can emulate a ring of revelation to be a higher oracle level than they are? There was another thread about getting BAB above your character level with the ancestral spirit revelation, but what if you emulate say a battle mystery with a check of 36 to get a BAB of 16?

Given the description of the skill I would say yes. It could require multiple UMD checks depending on your build.

As for the line that says "class features of another class" it is there as broad as daylight but it seems to be under the general fluff (and I use that term loosely) of the skill. Most skills have game mechanics under the "Check" line but UMD seems to put all of the mechanics much lower than where that line is listed. I guess if the developers and powers that be want to clarify it (if they have not already), it is up to them. It just does not seem right that I can emulate your class but not my class that I have worked so hard at advancing. Either way it comes down to a mechanic and how you see that mechanic operating.


partyrico wrote:
Ok, if this is withstanding, does this mean an oracle can emulate a ring of revelation to be a higher oracle level than they are? There was another thread about getting BAB above your character level with the ancestral spirit revelation, but what if you emulate say a battle mystery with a check of 36 to get a BAB of 16?

What does a ring of revelation do?


No you can't emulate a feature you already have, and the intent is most likely to just get it high enough to activate the item.

With that aside:

Quote:
Use a Wand, Staff, or Other Spell Trigger Item: Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand's spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. Failing the roll does not expend a charge.


A ring of revelation allows access to a revelation from an oracle mystery. Unofficially non-oracles cannot UMD it because of its last sentence.


I looked it up. A ring of revelation has no effect if it is worn by a non-oracle, according to the ring description.

UMD let's you emulate a class feature, but not a class. So no again


In the case of this oracle question, I am emulating a mystery that I do not have in an attempt to use the mystery at a higher level than my current oracle level. This is a feature that I do not have, and would allow things like higher level ancestral spirit revelation for higher BAB, something like time sight revelation for moment of prescience, or other bizarre things like using the dweller in the darkness revelation to cast weird at a much lower level.


A ring of revelation allows an oracle to gain access to a revelation from your mystery that you don't have assuming you are of a high enough level.

The ring makes you jump through a lot of hoops even if you are an oracle, so it makes it hard to UMD it.

I think the intent is not to be able to, but it would be better to get an official answer.

Grand Lodge

The Ring of Revelation was called specifically in FAQ.

No UMD check will allow to use it.

Edit: I can't seem to find it. I swore it existed.


Yes but in this case it is an oracle attempting to UMD a ring for a different mystery than the one they have. So a level 10 metal mystery oracle makes a UMD check for a ring of revelation, ancestral spirit (a 10,000 gp ring). This character has dangerously curious and skill focus (UMD), 10 ranks, and a +7 to charisma. 10 roll+1 trait+3 class bonus+7 cha+6 skill focus+3 circlet of persuasion + 10 ranks = 40 is a level 20 caster for a BAB of +20 for 10 rounds.


In the case of the ring of revelation question you have to emulate both the class ability and the class (because of the last sentence of the ring description) as you have pointed out yourself.

So you could emulate the ability

You cannot emulate the class.

And even if emulating the class was not an issue, you still would not gain the benefit of being a higher level caster because UMD does not let you gain that benefit. It only let's you emulate a class ability.


I believe the FAQ post disallowed non-oracle UMD, but I may be mistaken, could you link it?


Assuming this is an oracle making the UMD check, and when emulating a class feature, "your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20".


Your effective level for the purposes of determining what class features you can emulate is your UMD-20.


The definition of emulating a class feature for UMD does not state that it is for determining what class features can be emulated, "sometimes you need a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20."

I just thought it would be cool to emulate oracle abilities you don't have as a higher level oracle


I am out after this, but you have to read things in context

Quote:
Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

So, all you are asking is, "what does a UMD roll to emulate a class feature allow you to do?"

The answer then, no matter how many different ways you ask it, is "It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature."


Driver 325 yards wrote:
Your effective level for the purposes of determining what class features you can emulate is your UMD-20.

We know what it says. That is there to determine if you qualify to activate the item. As an example if I don't get class ability X until level 9 then I need a 29. That much is already in the book.

edit:I see we agree. Sorry about that. :)


That sentence is merely reinforcing the previous sentence, so that you can't use UMD to use class features. While you are emulating a class feature only for an item, the effective class level for that emulation ability is the one rolled -20.


Ok, if this has already been debated then I'll accept it as fact, but if I reach certain caps of the ability than does it trigger? Say there's an ability that gives resistance 5 at level 10 but resistance 10 at 20. If I get my UMD total to 20 do I get the second part of the ability?


partyrico wrote:
Ok, if this has already been debated then I'll accept it as fact, but if I reach certain caps of the ability than does it trigger? Say there's an ability that gives resistance 5 at level 10 but resistance 10 at 20. If I get my UMD total to 20 do I get the second part of the ability?

That I don't know. I would most likely allow it depending on how the magic item was written up, but that is no promise. The idea of another class out doing the original class with their own class feature just looks bad to me.


Ok, for an example, going back to the oracle. The dark tapestry contains the dweller in darkness revelation. This requires the player to be at least level 11. So a UMD check of 31 would allow the ability to be used (phantom killer once/day). But at level 17 the ability increases to weird once/day. So if a oracle got a UMD check of 37, would they be able to use the ability as a weird once/day?


I don't even think that ring can be UMD'd per RAW since UMD is for other classes, but I would most likely keep it to 1/day.


If we want to get into semantics, as long as I'm also using it to emulate another race or alignment for the purposes of that ring, an oracle can UMD an oracle ring.

A more powerful example would be an oracle of any level able to get a UMD of 35 using a 16000 ring to summon an elder ice elemental 2/day.


partyrico wrote:

If we want to get into semantics, as long as I'm also using it to emulate another race or alignment for the purposes of that ring, an oracle can UMD an oracle ring.

A more powerful example would be an oracle of any level able to get a UMD of 35 using a 16000 ring to summon an elder ice elemental 2/day.

The ring does not care about alignment so I am missing your point.


You could purchase or create the ring with an alignment or race restriction, this would allow an oracle to UMD as a oracle.


partyrico wrote:
You could purchase or create the ring with an alignment or race restriction, this would allow an oracle to UMD as a oracle.

Well he would still have to emulate the specific class feature needed like he does now. Adding a race or alignment restriction only adds another requirement. It does not overrule the other one.

As an example if you have to simulate class ability X, and another version of the item also calls for an alignment to be required then you have to meet both requirements, not just one or the other.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

I'm not really sure that emulating the "spells" class ability would give you a higher caster level for using a staff - staff use is specifically called out under spell trigger items in UMD. Since you don't actually gain the ability in question, the level line is there to make it tougher to emulate higher-level class abilities, not improve the ones you already have.

Also I don't think you can emulate a different choice on a class ability - so if you are an oracle, you already have the mystery and revelation class features, I don't think you can "emulate" having different ones. Can a fighter without the Cleave feat emulate having it to activate mighty cleaving? After all, bonus combat feats are a fighter class ability.

UMD is already a very powerful skill. It doesn't need to have more utility added to it.


Key things here:

From UMD emulating class feature:This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature.

Staves: the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of the staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff

Since in order to get the higher caster level for staves you have to be able to use the caster level, UMD doesn't work. If some item had the requirement of "sorcerer caster level X" you can emulate that, but that's not how staves function.


As for sorceror not ebing ablt to activate at level 20 (on a roll of 40) while a rogeu could....

Sorceror would just UMD it as a WIZARD rather than rogue (which is another class).

Again I would say cheesy and defintely not RAI but perhaps RAW.

Grand Lodge

partyrico wrote:
Yes, but can you emulate a feature that you already have, just to boost your own level for the purposes of the item?

No you can't. You can boost your level, but it only applies if operation of the item requires a certain caster level. It does not apply the actual effects of the caster level to the item.

As far as I know, the only item where this makes a difference, is scroll use.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / UMD question All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Rules Questions