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I, with the help of another guy, just wrestled down a man who was, very openly, groping a girl in the bus and called the cops on him. They just finished taking our statements, personal info and took him with them.
I'm horrified that such people still exist.
I am even more horrified that the guy who helped me and I were the only two people who reacted in a bus full of passengers (and I'm certain we were not the only ones who noticed).
Also I am annoyed at the girl for not kicking him in his privates and calling the cops on him herself, but hey, if she can't, there's someone who can.
Have you encountered stuff like this in public transport before? How did you react?
Surprisingly, the public transit I used in Phoenix was pretty well-behaved. I don't think I ever saw someone threatened or harassed, nobody ever really bothered me more than "hey move over, I need to sit", and the one or two disruptions I saw were more funny than disgusting or dangerous (such as one lady who was very obviously a street-corner preacher who kept waving her Bible around and arguing with the driver).
I say this though with the caveat that I was prone to sleeping on the bus during morning routes and pretty often had my head in my laptop otherwise, so there very likely were things going on I missed.
a man who was, very openly, groping a girl in the bus... I am annoyed at the girl for not kicking him in his privates and calling the cops on him herself, but hey, if she can't, there's someone who can.
Was she his girlfriend? If so, she might be more annoyed at you than at him!
If not, it sounds like you did the right thing.
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I had an odd experience similar to this. I was on a bus in California in the bay area and a vagrant was exposing himself to people on the bus. This was happening on the front of the bus, and I was in the back unaware of the situation until a man so upset by this stabbed the vagrant with a pen and beat him severely. Since then I have started carrying a knife with me on public transit, which I rarely use nowadays.
I hope that Serbian law isn't as ridiculous as Polish when it comes to defending others where you could have more problems for "assaulting" the man than he for his harassment of that girl...
I had an odd experience similar to this. I was on a bus in California in the bay area and a vagrant was exposing himself to people on the bus. This was happening on the front of the bus, and I was in the back unaware of the situation until a man so upset by this stabbed the vagrant with a pen and beat him severely. Since then I have started carrying a knife with me on public transit, which I rarely use nowadays.
In case another exhibitionist comes along?
I experienced something like that once. Some a@%#@%#s were harassing a black women verbally. I'm a bit ashamed to say that I only stepped in just before it came to blows. Fortunately, it didn't.
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I, with the help of another guy, just wrestled down a man who was, very openly, groping a girl in the bus and called the cops on him. They just finished taking our statements, personal info and took him with them.
Good for you for not falling prey to the bystander effect.
I'm horrified that such people still exist.
I am even more horrified that the guy who helped me and I were the only two people who reacted in a bus full of passengers (and I'm certain we were not the only ones who noticed).
Also I am annoyed at the girl for not kicking him in his privates and calling the cops on him herself, but hey, if she can't, there's someone who can.Have you encountered stuff like this in public transport before? How did you react?
Most women I know who regularly use public transit have plenty of stories like this. Here are some emblematic ones: http://unwinona.tumblr.com/post/30861660109/i-debated-whether-or-not-to-sha re-this-story
Also I am annoyed at the girl for not kicking him in his privates
And get beaten up? I think not.
Here are some emblematic ones: http://unwinona.tumblr.com/post/30861660109/i-debated-whether-or-not-to-sha re-this-story
I'm horrified at what this woman had to endure -- but at the same time, I'm not sure I'd as quickly make the jump from "on the train ride I met one obnoxious young punk, one businessman, and one very obviously and dangerously insane person" to "what is the hell is wrong with ALL MEN?!!!!!!!"
Customer Service Manager
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When I commuted by bus I had several incidents occur. The most unfortunately memorable was a guy (possibly drunk) on my evening commute continually try to talk to me and when I wouldn't carry a conversation with him obviously and unabashedly try to look up my skirt.
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As far as "fighting back" goes, the one time I saw a women fight back against a creeper, she punched him after he wouldn't keep his hands off her and she got thrown off a bus by the driver in a very deserted industrial zone at night with infrequent bus service.
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Here are some emblematic ones: http://unwinona.tumblr.com/post/30861660109/i-debated-whether-or-not-to-sha re-this-storyI'm horrified at what this woman had to endure -- but at the same time, I'm not sure I'd as quickly make the jump from "on the train ride I met one obnoxious young punk, one businessman, and one very obviously and dangerously insane person" to "what is the hell is wrong with ALL MEN?!!!!!!!"
...If that's how you're reading it, I feel you are injecting personal stuff into the post that isn't there.
Here are some emblematic ones: http://unwinona.tumblr.com/post/30861660109/i-debated-whether-or-not-to-sha re-this-storyI'm horrified at what this woman had to endure -- but at the same time, I'm not sure I'd as quickly make the jump from "on the train ride I met one obnoxious young punk, one businessman, and one very obviously and dangerously insane person" to "what is the hell is wrong with ALL MEN?!!!!!!!"
I'm not sure I agree with your reading there, Kirth.
"Because in my own way, I can (unfortunately) point out exactly what is wrong with men when they don’t realize how hard it is to be a woman. How we do not have equal opportunities and freedoms in everyday life. How most men, even good caring men, have no clue what we go through on a daily basis just trying to live our lives."
(Emphasis added)
"So when people (men) want to talk about 'legitimate' forms of assault, tell girls they should be nice to strangers and give men the benefit of a doubt, tell them to consider it a compliment, tell them to ignore the bad behavior of men, I want them to be forced to feel, for even one minute, what it feels like to have so much verbal hatred and physical intimidation thrown at them for nothing more than being female and not wanting to share."
Although, I agree, the last dude's misogyny sounds more like mental derangement than more run-of-the-mill sexism.
EDIT: Oops. I hate pig piling.
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Yeah, dude had issues.
Re: Fighting back:
If the assault is obvious, and no one is saying "Hey, stop that," you feel pretty alone, and it's very possible you'll get piled on by the people that are letting this behavior slide if you protest / ask for help.
Whenever I was picked on / hit / punched / kicked in the head on the school bus, if I fought back, I was the one that got in trouble, or kicked off the bus and forced to walk the rest of the way home / to school. School was in a good neighborhood, so that wasn't usually too bad. Home was right across the street from some Detroit projects. Very unsafe. Better to just put your arms around your head and get kicked a few times by the Catholic school kids, in general.
Surrounded by strangers, you often just don't know where you stand.
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Although, a word to all the ladies of the world riding planes, trains and automobiles:
If you are ever approached by a 3' goblin with glowing red eyes and a necklace made out of bones who asks you what you're reading, it's because I'm a bibliophile, not a creeper.
Okay, I'm probably a creeper, too, but I just want to know what you're reading. I like books.
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I hope that Serbian law isn't as ridiculous as Polish when it comes to defending others where you could have more problems for "assaulting" the man than he for his harassment of that girl...
They are as ridiculous, Remnants of the bad parts of communism. It is so bad that if you shoot and kill a man who broke into your house and attacked you with a knife, you go to jail for murder and for using excessive force for self defense. Not to say that any pistol you own must be disassembled and barrel kept away from the trigger portion with ammo in a third place.
Fortunately, cops know when to turn a blind eye to such stuff and write that the perpetrator of the assault and battery ran away before he could be identified and that bystanders couldn't provide accurate depictions. Plus we simply wrestled him down and held him pinned until cops arrived (i guess my CMD with Aid another from the guy was too much for his measly CMB ;D). Can't wait for him to go to jail over this, you should see what other inmates do to rapists and sex offenders of other kinds. Not pretty.
Good for you for not falling prey to the bystander effect.
I consider people who just watch on without reacting to be the worst kind of scum.
And get beaten up? I think not.
You do know that a kick in the genitals ranks higher on a pain scale then childbirth?(i am not debating if this is true, but scientists who devoted their lives to pain say so) One solid kick or punch in the testicles is all that takes to completely disable a man. Let's say that the dude is beyond nauseated after this. Only being able to clutch his genitals and whimper on the floor in a ball of pain. Yes, there are Buddhist monks who can take an iron bar in the genitals but i doubt that they would fondle women. Just writing about hurting that region made it hurt a little. And that's just mental suggestion.
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And get beaten up? I think not.You do know that a kick in the genitals ranks higher on a pain scale then childbirth?(i am not debating if this is true, but scientists who devoted their lives to pain say so) One solid kick or punch in the testicles is all that takes to completely disable a man. Let's say that the dude is beyond nauseated after this. Only being able to clutch his genitals and whimper on the floor in a ball of pain. Yes, there are Buddhist monks who can take an iron bar in the genitals but i doubt that they would fondle women. Just writing about hurting that region made it hurt a little. And that's just mental suggestion.
Which means he'll be that much angrier if a woman tries it and misses. Once you escalate to making it a physical altercation, you've passed a certain point of no return. (Not to mention that some people are as revolted by the idea of causing someone else that much pain if it's not a life-or-death situation as they are by the way they're being treated.) And given the bystander effect, she's not likely to get any help. She shouldn't have to make the choice, but I'd rather try and defuse the situation, even though he's 100% in the wrong, than risk serious injury or worse.
But more importantly, she shouldn't have to make that choice. Don't blame the victim.
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Can't wait for him to go to jail over this, you should see what other inmates do to rapists and sex offenders of other kinds. Not pretty.
Yes. Prison rape and abuse of other prisons is a big problem here too.
Not something to make fun of or applaud, whatever someone has done.
I'm a firm believer that everyone should suffer the consequences for their actions, be they good or bad. He chose to grope the girl, he deserves to go to jail for that. Maybe the treatment he is given by the inmates will dissuade him from further deviant behavior.
But more importantly, she shouldn't have to make that choice. Don't blame the victim.
I'm not blaming her for getting harassed. I am simply annoyed at the fact that she would rather take it then stand up for herself. But then, I'm considered foolhardy by my friends, often standing up for myself when maybe the smart thing would be to back off. I've been fired for this several times and gotten into several fights that didn't end well for me. But i didn't let them walk all over me, and in my books, that counts.
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But more importantly, she shouldn't have to make that choice. Don't blame the victim.I'm not blaming her for getting harassed. I am simply annoyed at the fact that she would rather take it then stand up for herself.
You're blaming her for not making the choice you would have made in a situation you've never been in.
The behaviour on city rail is not too bad, our biggest problem is racist bogans male and female going off on go back to where you came from rants. I wish I was there for those I hate racists.
I was sitting in the empty vestibule reading after leaving work late, a young woman got on at Museum station and sat across from me, a guy off his face on something (he as moving slowly and drooling) stumbled on at the same time and sat down next to her. I hadn't noticed them as I was reading. All of a sudden I saw movement out of the corner of my eye the young woman had moved up the seat fast, I looked up and the addict was reaching out trying to touch her hair.... I put on my deep voice and said "Oi mate, NO!, you get off at the next stop." The guy got up and went to the doors and as we had just passed St James, the guy got off at Circular Quay. I gave the woman an are you ok nod and went back to reading my book.
Odds are you had better get a lawyer post haste. You, barring any good deed you might hold to, have assaulted another person. You've probably admitted to it to the police. They will likely contact you soon with a fine, and the 'victim' will likely be looking to sue you soon after.
You wonder why no one else helped? It's because they would be punished for such 'good deeds'. We are being trained to ignore assault, and police are only looking for 'lawbreakers' and guess what category you just fell into.
Odds are you had better get a lawyer post haste. You, barring any good deed you might hold to, have assaulted another person. You've probably admitted to it to the police. They will likely contact you soon with a fine, and the 'victim' will likely be looking to sue you soon after.
You wonder why no one else helped? It's because they would be punished for such 'good deeds'. We are being trained to ignore assault, and police are only looking for 'lawbreakers' and guess what category you just fell into.
I guess Serbia has laws about citizen's arrest. If Hama and the other guy just kept the man from running, he should be fine (although lawyering up certainly can't hurt). Anything beyond that could be a problem.
what the-
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We didn't beat him if that is what you mean, we simply grabbed hold of him, wrestled him a little, pinned him to the ground and held him like that until the cops came. He did beat on us during the struggle though. The other guy got a pretty nasty bruise on his shoulder and my ribs are not too fancy.
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I am not so sure it has much to do with sexual harassment, anyone is likely to be the victim of aggressive behavior and if anything a guy is more likely to be beaten up than a girl for looking at someone funny.
Men are hardly immune to intimidation and violence, while I do sympathize with women it really isn't just women that suffer I'd not be surprised if for every physical sexual harassment towards women a man is stabbed or otherwise a victim of severe physical abuse.
All the same if more people would have the decency and conviction to stand up to such behavior society might be a better place, but truth be told I can hardly blame people for being afraid to act, it is not uncommon for good people trying to do the right thing to become the victim. So yea, kudos to you Hama and glad you did not get knifed.
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Men are hardly immune to intimidation and violence...
(Coughs politely to get you to notice that comments like this are unacceptable here.)
From a psychological standpoint, most people who are victims in these kind of situations do not retaliate for fear that the perpetrator will become violent and cause bodily harm.
Many people who say they wouldn't take it and fight back are usually one of the ones who either get hurt or freeze up when actually in a situation.
We all want to think that we would have more control over the situation but honestly the only things we have control over is ourselves and even then it is a moderate amount of control.
I may make jokes that are "offensive to women" and have issues with oversensitivity and political correctness but if I saw a guy doing this type on the bus he's going to get choked out.
Yeah, that about sums it up. I'm not sure I'd skip right to pretending to be an MMA star, but I like to think I'd intervene.
Many people who say they wouldn't take it and fight back are usually one of the ones who either get hurt or freeze up when actually in a situation.
This is important to point out. It's amazing how much you learn about yourself, the first time someone points a loaded pistol at you and cocks it.
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Have you encountered stuff like this in public transport before? How did you react?
Context helps a lot. There are routes in my city that I am ashamed to say I would call 911 and not interfere. A common tactic for gangs in my city is to have one guy act up like your creeper. As soon as the Samaritan steps up the gang descends on them like a pack of wolves. They beat the person bloody and steal their belongings. They run off the bus and are on another bus a block away before anyone can even register the situation.
The light rail isn't anything like that. I would certainly feel safer acting on that route. I would still evaluate the situation before getting involved.
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I am not so sure it has much to do with sexual harassment, anyone is likely to be the victim of aggressive behavior and if anything a guy is more likely to be beaten up than a girl for looking at someone funny.
Men are hardly immune to intimidation and violence, while I do sympathize with women it really isn't just women that suffer I'd not be surprised if for every physical sexual harassment towards women a man is stabbed or otherwise a victim of severe physical abuse.
All the same if more people would have the decency and conviction to stand up to such behavior society might be a better place, but truth be told I can hardly blame people for being afraid to act, it is not uncommon for good people trying to do the right thing to become the victim. So yea, kudos to you Hama and glad you did not get knifed.
Lets step back for a second.
The women are asking for a little more empathy and consideration. For people to stand up when they see something wrong going on and assist the person who is being victimized.
If all those things increased in our society, do you think that would have a positive or negative impact on male-male incidents like you're describing?
Are you making the claim that if men were more empathetic, the rate of violence directed at men would increase?
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That's kind of my point. Instead of arguing over whether women or men have it worse, actually pay attention to the SOLUTION being presented.
Reducing violence against women is not a zero-sum game. The behaviors and efforts to reduce violence against women will probably also reduce violence against men. Therefore arguing about how violence against men is being ignored is actually counterproductive, because then we have to argue about statistics of victims, instead of discussing actual solutions.
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Many people who say they wouldn't take it and fight back are usually one of the ones who either get hurt or freeze up when actually in a situation.This is important to point out. It's amazing how much you learn about yourself, the first time someone points a loaded pistol at you and cocks it.
It was an ak 47 type thing, but i learned
1) I had a LOT more ranks in diplomacy than i thought
2) I have been playing way, way too much D&D because i actually thought of my actions as "use a 5 foot step so i can dive behind the car, move action to the tree for cover, then swim"
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[redacted]@paizo.com)
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6/11/13
To: [redacted]
We've removed a post from the messageboards. Please feel free to repost with offensive language removed.
Here is the thread: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2puks?Sexual-harrastment-in-public-transportati on
Text is below:
You know, I took public transportation in Boston for ten years and, no, I never witnessed anything like that. Not saying it didn't happen, but I never saw it.
I do remember, though, one time, that a comrade of mine came into our office, all flustered. He had been in a train where some [redacted]bags were harassing a gay kid. I guess my comrade gave them a stern lecture and escorted the gay kid out of the station.
The funny thing is, this comrade of mine was a complete nebbish. I mean, he was a [redacted] actuary, for chrissakes, listened to opera, wore bow ties, the whole nine yards. The [redacted]bags could've stomped him to pulp, but, of course, bullies are cowards.
Good job, Hama.
I wonder if this scenario would have played the same way if the one being groped was a guy, and the one doing the groping was a woman*.
Then again, I agree with Irontruth. Comparing statistics is not the same as presenting solutions. This did not need to descend into that kind of topic.
* = My guess is he would have been called lucky, even if he didn't want the treatment. You know, because all men ever think about is sex and nothing else. /sarcasm
Humans will be humans. Meaning, they will be jerks.
I've heard second-hand stories in AZ a few times when some guy is being a creep and some body (male or female) pulls back their jacket or coat to reveal that they do, indeed, have a weapon on them. There's a guy that I've seen in the FLGS that keeps a stun-gun on him, fully visible.
An acquaintance of mine works as a taxi driver. One night (this was during the FLGS's Warmachine night) he came in looking pretty flustered. People asked him what was up, and he said that some couple hasstled him. The guy sat behind the driver's seat and tried to choke the driver, but the driver pulled out his pocket knife and drew a little bit of blood on the guy's hand. The couple was so drunk that they just waited in the car for the police to arrive.