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This question can also be amusingly stated as 'How always is always?'
Natural Attacks Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus and add the creature's full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type. The natural attacks by size table lists some of the most common types of natural attacks and their classifications.
Some creatures treat one or more of their attacks differently, such as dragons, which always receive 1-1/2 times their Strength bonus on damage rolls with their bite attack. These exceptions are noted in the creature's description.
Bolded the important.
Would bite be considered a secondary attack that deals 1.5x str damage? I mean if something states that it is always 1.5x damage then it is always 1.5x damage right?
For what it's worth Hero Lab seems to think so and I tend to agree with it in this case, but I'm wondering what other people think.
If you use natural weapons with manufactured weapons, the natural weapons are always considered secondary. This would be true even for a dragon, who would only get 1/2 str bonus on a bite if he happened to do it while also swinging a sword.
The reason a dragon bite is called out, is because it gets 1.5x str even though the dragon has other natural weapons. Typically, if a creature has more than 1 natural weapon, primary weapons get 1x, and secondary 1/2.
If you use natural weapons with manufactured weapons, the natural weapons are always considered secondary. This would be true even for a dragon, who would only get 1/2 str bonus on a bite if he happened to do it while also swinging a sword.
The reason a dragon bite is called out, is because it gets 1.5x str even though the dragon has other natural weapons. Typically, if a creature has more than 1 natural weapon, primary weapons get 1x, and secondary 1/2.
I understand how natural weapons usually work and I agree that the bite would then be a seconardy weapon (hit penalties apply) but I submit that the bite still would still do 1.5x str damage.
I'm wondering what if anything would contradict the statement always. The statement is not 'always if the attack is primary'.
This could affect a couple different things easily available to players, Dragon Disiples and eidolons with bites+manufactored weapons are two which immediately come to mind.
Alternatively why would a dragon wielding a sword have it's bite deal .5x damage when the damage is explicitly called out to be always 1.5x damage.
Well, a dragon wielding a sword would deal 1.5xStr mod damage, a dragon disciple won't.
The dragon disciple's bite ability specifically says they add 1 1/2x their strength modifier. There is a table that shows what attacks are primary and which are secondary. Possessing only one natural attack gives that attack 1 1/2 x their str modifier regardless of its type (Primary or secondary). The dragon disciple has 2 claw attacks with limited uses per day, but the specific rule trumps the general rule by stating that their bite gets 1 1/2x their str modifier.
I am trying to find your initially quoted passage, the closest I can find is:
Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.
Some natural attacks are denoted as secondary natural attacks, such as tails and wings. Attacks with secondary natural attacks are made using your base attack bonus minus 5. These attacks deal an amount of damage depending on their type, but you only add half your Strength modifier on damage rolls.
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.
This states ALL secondary natural attacks get 1/2 strength on damage. Can you provide the source for your quote?
PRD, universal monster rules, natural attacks
Ok. First off the dragon disciple is a PC, not a monster, with a race of humanoid(something). I think the rules under combat supersede the universal monster rules when the creature in question is not a "monster" nor in the bestiary. Moving on...
Under the dragon entries in the bestiary, we find this:
"Bite: This is a primary attack that deals the indicated damage plus 1-1/2 times the dragon's Strength bonus (even though it has more than one attack). A dragon's bite attack has reach as if the creature were one size category larger (+10 feet for Colossal dragons)."
Meanwhile, in prestige classes, we find the dragon disciple's bite attack text of:
"Dragon Bite (Ex): At 2nd level, whenever the dragon disciple uses his bloodline to grow claws, he also gains a bite attack. This is a primary natural attack that deals 1d6 points of damage (1d4 if the dragon disciple is Small), plus 1–1/2 times the dragon disciple's Strength modifier. Upon reaching 6th level, this bite also deals 1d6 points of energy damage. The type of damage dealt is determined by the dragon disciple's bloodline."
Neither of which overrule the rules under combat for mixing natural and manufactured attacks, stating all natural attacks are treated as secondary with 1/2 strength.
So yes, even a dragon, if he attacks with a longsword and his bite, only gets 1/2 str dmg on his bite.
So if a dragon disciple attacks with only his claws and bite then the bite would still get 1 1/2 strength modifier?
Yes Robert, that's not even in question.
Tarantula, I've read that passage you linked before and it has nothing about attacks that do more than the normal damage as a primary attack so I strongly question the validity of the conclusion you're making solely on that. I'm hoping that there are other rules that I may have missed.
Yes Robert, that's not even in question.
Tarantula, I've read that passage you linked before and it has nothing about attacks that do more than the normal damage as a primary attack so I strongly question the validity of the conclusion you're making solely on that. I'm hoping that there are other rules that I may have missed.
You're right, it doesn't because it doesn't need to.
If you mix manufactured with natural, all natural as treated as secondary and get 1/2 str damage. Period.
If they wanted to allow a dragon's bite to still do more damage, then it would need to be worded in such a way to allow an exception. Something like,
When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. If your natural attack normally does 1 1/2 strength modifier, it deals 1x strength modifier instead.
They did not do this. This makes the manufactured & natural attacks treat all natural attacks the same, regardless of how special they are.
But you are ignoring the wording from before, which is the only part where I've found that the rules talk about 1.5x str natural attacks.
Some creatures treat one or more of their attacks differently, such as dragons, which always receive 1-1/2 times their Strength bonus on damage rolls with their bite attack. These exceptions are noted in the creature's description.
So, why is always not always.
Universal Monster Rules
The following rules are standard and are referenced (but not repeated) in monster stat blocks. Each rule includes a format guide for how it appears in a monster's listing and its location in the stat block.
You are quoting from the bestiary, which is rules for how to run the creatures/monsters within and use their abilities in combat.
I am quoting from the Combat chapter of the Core rule book. Which is how to use PC abilities and run them in combat.
I would say you *might* have a case that an actual Dragon making mixed attacks would get 1.5x str on the bite.
Nothing in the dragon disciple bite ability does it state they always get 1.5x str damage. Therefore, the rules under combat override it when it is mixed with a manufactured attack.
Always is always... when referring to dragons. A dragon disciple, however, is not a dragon, but in fact a humanoid or outsider(whatever type the PC's race is, it isn't dragon). That is what tarantula is saying. Since you aren't a dragon, you are bound to the rules that non-dragons must follow when using a primary natural attack with manufactured weapons, including the rule that primary natural attacks become secondary attacks and so on. That's what I've been able to gather so far.
If you were somehow able to change your creature type from humanoid to dragon, your bite would indeed do 1 1/2X your strength modifier while attacking with other weapons. Your bite would also gain +5ft reach as dragons' bite attacks also gain that.