I would be really strongly against this. I think making PVP a coin faucet (as opposed to a way to move existing coin around) is a mistake. Valuation aside, this also removes the requirement for killers to find a way to fence their stolen goods. Also, it creates a perverse incentive to kill someone and loot nothing, because you'll get more coin.@ZenPagan, you're right. I kind of glossed over it, but your concerns are exactly what I had in mind when I said "a new solution that retains the important properties of the current one". My suggestions were generally attempting to find a more palatable way to incentivize looters to leave higher tier gear on the husk.
Perhaps a more direct incentive is called for.
One common consideration when looting a player character husk will be time and encumbrance. Perhaps there should be a very quick option to immediately convert the unlooted & unthreaded items to Coin. Mundane items would only grant a small portion of their value, but T3 gear might convert to a significant amount of Coin, which has no encumbrance. It seems to me that this would create a very strong incentive for players to leave T3 gear on husks, although it does create a challenge in properly valuing the gear.
I agree totally with Dario on this. If you put the coin solution in what you would get is people loading up with all the items they wish to turn into coin then have friends kill them while they stand in the graveyard as a means of vendoring items
Goblin Squad Member
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@Dario, do you think it's a salvageable idea at all?
I'm not entirely sure why you think PvP as a Coin Faucet is a bad idea. Perhaps you could go into more detail on your reasons for that.
Valuation aside, this also removes the requirement for killers to find a way to fence their stolen goods.
Do you think that's a significant concern for looting goods? As I understand it, there won't be any flags on looted gear that make it "hot", so there really won't be any difficulty in reselling it.
Also, it creates a perverse incentive to kill someone and loot nothing, because you'll get more coin.
This seems very much a part of the challenge of valuation.
At any rate, I'm not committed to this solution; I only offer it as a consideration to keep the conversation moving forward. For what it's worth cmastah seemed to come upon a very similar idea, but based on converting to "parts" rather than to Coin.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you put the coin solution in what you would get is people loading up with all the items they wish to turn into coin then have friends kill them while they stand in the graveyard as a means of vendoring items
Ahah! Now that is a very good reason to scrap that idea. I didn't even think of that. Thanks for pointing it out.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can see people transporting 1 item from place to place with a bunch of trash in their bags so it they die the chance the 1 item is lootable is slim, assuming they don't thread it for some reason.
Both Stephen Cheney and Ryan Dancey have confirmed that the lootable items would be a random selected portion of the non threaded items in this thread
Randomly selected could mean 1-10 items drop into the lootable pile or it could mean every unthreaded item has a 33% of dropping. Or the drop % for each kill could vary, like 24-40% with an average of 33%.
With either of the percentage based mechanisms, it doesn't matter if someone is carrying 1 item or 200 items, the chance of any given item dropping is the same, like a coin flip. And if the Goblin Accountants determine we're accumulating too many things, they can sneakily adjust the drop rate.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One common consideration when looting a player character husk will be time and encumbrance. Perhaps there should be a very quick option to immediately convert the unlooted & unthreaded items to Coin. Mundane items would only grant a small portion of their value, but T3 gear might convert to a significant amount of Coin, which has no encumbrance. It seems to me that this would create a very strong incentive for players to leave T3 gear on husks, although it does create a challenge in properly valuing the gear.
There is already a way planned to deal with some of the encumbrance of looting corpses:
Existing items may be salvaged for components. This can be done using either a field salvage kit or by taking the item to be salvaged to the appropriate crafting facility. The salvage kit is consumable, but allows the wielder to use the quality rating of the kit instead of her own skill level when determining the quality of the component gained through salvage (and doing it in the field likely reduces the item's encumbrance versus lugging it home). In a crafting facility, the character can use her skill to deconstruct the item. Salvaging an item is inherently lossy, and will not return all components used in its manufacture. In addition to reclaiming player-crafted goods, creatures and NPCs that use gear may drop damaged or otherwise worthless gear which can be salvaged for useful components.
So, if you want an easily carried version of their loot then carry salvage kits with you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In addition to reclaiming player-crafted goods, creatures and NPCs that use gear may drop damaged or otherwise worthless gear which can be salvaged for useful components.
Hmm. What if some fraction of gear in PvP was likewise damaged? Not to reduce the amount of usable loot, but to sort of bridge between the usable stuff and the lost items. Something for carrion crows to peck at. It might be a raw material source, too, like for a brigand settlement that didn't have a lot of gathering operations.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The issue is the randomness of the looting. My problems with it were also stated by Milo.
1. It does not make sense. What are the physical or magical inhibitors that prevent me from looting the unthreaded items of my choice?
2. How does GW prevent some one from filling their pockets with crap, to throw the randomness off, protecting the semi valuable unthreaded items?
3. If the bandit is only looting random items, how does that amount to a significant item sink? The traveler is unlikely to look to replace low grade items.
4. The Devs have not explained how multiple looters in the same group will be handled. Is this the way around, only looting a portion, since multiple portions may eventually amount to the whole?
5. It leads to unnecessary killing. If I'm looking to loot a particular resource, but I miss it due to random item looting, I will have to seek out multiple targets to get what I was looking for
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Goblin Squad Member
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First, I generally agree with you that there is something lacking about random looting.
3. If the bandit is only looting random items, how does that amount to a significant item sink? The traveler is unlikely to look to replace low grade items.
It's an item sink because everything that isn't looted gets destroyed.
4. The Devs have not explained how multiple looters in the same group will be handled. Is this the way around, only looting a portion, since multiple portions may eventually amount to the whole?
Interesting question. I've generally been assuming that everything left is destroyed the instant the first looter is done, unless he takes nothing at all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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2. How does GW prevent some one from filling their pockets with crap, to throw the randomness off, protecting the semi valuable unthreaded items?
3. If the bandit is only looting random items, how does that amount to a significant item sink? The traveler is unlikely to look to replace low grade items.
4. The Devs have not explained how multiple looters in the same group will be handled. Is this the way around, only looting a portion, since multiple portions may eventually amount to the whole?
2&3, items that don't make the loot table are not "protected". They're destroyed. The owner doesn't get to reclaim them. That's why it's a sink. If it goes into the bandit's hands, it's not a sink.
4, they haven't addressed (to my knowledge) but it would be logical to assume they're all looting from the same pool. So if the first guy takes everything (which, frankly, bandits probably want since it's quicker), then you get to work out how to dispense the loot at your leisure back at the hideout(since nothing is bind on pickup).
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Goblin Squad Member
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It does not make sense. What are the physical or magical inhibitors that prevent me from looting the unthreaded items of my choice?
Dunno. It makes sense to me that some items are damaged or destroyed when their owner suffers a violent death. More sense than everything she carried made it through in perfect condition.
Tracking the current damage level for every discrete item in the game takes resources. If GW doesn't track incremental damage for items' wear and tear, but applies damage losses upon death - that might be easier and still a fair way to do it.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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It could be the case that some items survive intact, some are destroyed outright, and some are 'damaged' to the point that they can only be recycled into raw materials.
As a gameplay dodge, the damage and destruction might happen when the husk is looted, not when it is created.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, maybe each item just have a 50% chance to be lootable and the rest are lost? But maybe that solution is too simple for you?
It is not a matter of simple or complexi, a solution by definition is a fix of a problem. I Luke the above ideas that the longer I search, the more the items are revealed and therefore become loot able.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is not a matter of simple or complexi, a solution by definition is a fix of a problem. I Luke the above ideas that the longer I search, the more the items are revealed and therefore become loot able.
Bludd,
Knowing the trouble your phone gives you when it comes to changing words in your post, I'm left wondering if you meant "loath" or "like" rather than Luke. :)
I can see from your professional point of view (bandit) that you would like looting to be as quick as possible. As others have argued, it would take considerable time to thoroughly search every nook and cranny to locate where goods might be stored/hidden. I totally agree that banditry is a needed part of the game and that death provides an item sink, but I'm not looking to promote ease of looting for bandits. I like you a bunch...but not enough to make your stealing of my items any easier. ;)
The suggestions that the largest items would be found most readily make sense, but then it occurred to me, that depends on which part of the corpse you search first. If you begin your search by looking through the corpse's belt pouch, the largest items (e.g. the ore in the backpack) still isn't what you find first. Perhaps the looter needs to identify the part of the body they are searching? In some games, a little picture of a body appears in the corner of your screen to hi-light what parts of your armor are damaged. Perhaps when looting, the same picture appears on screen with the various "regions" for looting and you need to click on the one you search first. Your selection would start the 6 second delay before viewing the items to simulate you riffling through that part of the body (pouches, backpack, cloak lining, boots, etc.).
I'm not trying to solve what portion of goods are displayed or how much you're allowed to eventually see by looting each portion of the body - just offering another way to add choice on the part of the bandit, keep what's seen realistically limited, and add additional time if you choose to keep searching. I think the time element is important - if you want to be thorough, you're going to need time...time that someone or something wanders by and ruins your fun.
I'll leave it to others to work out the bugs if this seems like a viable solution (I have to get off to work), or until I have more time to post.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you put the coin solution in what you would get is people loading up with all the items they wish to turn into coin then have friends kill them while they stand in the graveyard as a means of vendoring itemsAhah! Now that is a very good reason to scrap that idea. I didn't even think of that. Thanks for pointing it out.
Also, coin will not be lost when a player dies. This means that if you can convert items to coin on-the-spot, the killer will reap all the benefits of the loot immediately, thus removing the option of swiftly tracking down your killer to prevent him from gaining anything from having killed you. You also remove the need for a rampaging murderer to return to camp to stash loot and so on.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The economy drain is in losing the items in-game coin will be paying for. They want the money in-game to circulate, not just vanish. The things you spend in-game coin for goes away through destruction making room for other items for players to craft, but the coin should stay in circulation, other than whatever characters hold who are not actively played.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The economy drain is in losing the items in-game coin will be paying for. They want the money in-game to circulate, not just vanish. The things you spend in-game coin for goes away through destruction but the coin should stay in circulation, other than whatever characters hold who are not actively played.
Coin exits the game as well, via a drain. Drains include actions like paying an NPC vendor for something or paying a tax or a fee to an NPC or to some system service. Coin might be consumed by player characters in other interactions with the game world in ways yet to be determined.
Coin will absolutely leave circulation. The difference is that those drains are controlled by GW, allowing them to more accurately manipulate M, whereas if coin were lost on death, it would be a much more difficult metric to predict and account for.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...much more difficult metric to predict and account for.
Emergent behaviour would probably have people begin travelling with little or no coin, thus increasing demand for banks in Settlements. With coin having no weight, risk would probably become the controlling factor in carried cash wealth.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...much more difficult metric to predict and account for.Emergent behaviour would probably have people begin travelling with little or no coin, thus increasing demand for banks in Settlements. With coin having no weight, risk would probably become the controlling factor in carried cash wealth.
You then have massive spikes in coin leaving the market whenever a settlement is damaged or destroyed. What it actually incentivizes is people creating dummy alts to hold their coin and never log in, except when they're making a withdrawl from their personal, walking ATM.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thanks for the clarification above everyone, makes sense when it's explained.
I don't necessarily think it would be a massive spike in coin leaving the market...maybe changing hands though (to whomever sacked the settlement).
One thing is for sure though, if we can carry all of our coin wealth on us at all times without fear of losing it, we really wont ever need banks for storing coin.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thanks for the clarification above everyone, makes sense when it's explained.
I don't necessarily think it would be a massive spike in coin leaving the market...maybe changing hands though (to whomever sacked the settlement).
One thing is for sure though, if we can carry all of our coin wealth on us at all times without fear of losing it, we really wont ever need banks for storing coin.
I admit, I don't see that as a problem. Besides, there's plenty of reason for banks to exist anyway. A settlement that builds up a decent reserve of coin can set up lending banks to loan out coin and return interest. They could allow others to deposit their coin so that it can be lent out and earn the players interest as well.
Coin sinks will be taxes from markets/training etc
I would see this working as there is a base %age say 1 or 2 that goes to the market/trainer, then on top a settlement can add its own taxes or charges
I expect building construction to take some sort of coin cost to erect (paying off the npc labourers)
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Goblin Squad Member
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One thing is for sure though, if we can carry all of our coin wealth on us at all times without fear of losing it, we really wont ever need banks for storing coin.
True but most will still need to visit a bank frequently, to deposit loot and to swap out equipment since it will be very very risky to carry a lot of expensive items around.
Also, you would want a few spare sets of gear in your bank for when you die and need to replace parts.|
CEO, Goblinworks
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1. It does not make sense. What are the physical or magical inhibitors that prevent me from looting the unthreaded items of my choice?
<lorehack>When you die, the immense forces unleashed by Pharasma which bind your soul to Golarion instead of its normal course through the Outer Planes to the Boneyard produces a short-range emmenation of chaotic disruptive force that randomly displaces your inventory across the multiverse leaving only a random selection behind.</lorehack>
Feel better? :)
The Devs have not explained how multiple looters in the same group will be handled. Is this the way around, only looting a portion, since multiple portions may eventually amount to the whole?
It was implied, if not stated outright, that the random selection of lootable gear is independent of who is viewing the loot. We probably have not done any design work on locking the loot while its browsed (or not) or how to handle multiple people trying to loot the same body at the same time. My inclination is "whoever clicks first wins", but I defer to the judgement of the actual Designers. :)
RyanD
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Goblin Squad Member
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<lorehack>When you die, the immense forces unleashed by Pharasma which bind your soul to Golarion instead of its normal course through the Outer Planes to the Boneyard produces a short-range emmenation of chaotic disruptive force that randomly displaces your inventory across the multiverse leaving only a random selection behind.</lorehack>
(I realize we shouldn't take this too seriously, it is a game mechanic good for the game and that is the only explanation I really need, but:)
Your explanation doesn't hold if it is the case that you can recover your entire inventory upon returning to your corpse before it gets looted. It would seem it is through the act of looting that stuff gets destroyed.
EDIT: New idea, "the immense forces..." build a sort of static charge upon the remains, when a person other than the original owner (who is naturally attuned to the charge) touches the items there is a chance that this charge is triggered, and the item destroyed/displaced.