All,
I have a friend who wants to play a ranged character like an archer or a crossbowman. He specifically wants to play a Kitsune. He does not like to deal with any tricky stuff like spellcasting or funky traps or animal companions. He just wants to be some kind of Kitsune archer.
What build do you recommend for this? This will be a kingmaker campaign and he will be joining our currently first level party. We have a cavalier and a barbarian and a wizard and an Oracle.
I was thinking he should go for the pure fighter/bow concept, at least before I knew Kitsune (-2 str) was a requirement. Our game master thinks he should go with a crossbow and the skirmisher Rogue thing for moving sneak attack since the racial penalty to strength will be present. I actually now don't know what to think now. None of us are really hard core gamists in terms of mechanics. So it's just has to kind of be fun for the player and work well enough.
Oh and we have a generous 25 point buy.
Help? Advice?
And again the player is very new to the system and just doesn't like any spellcasting or weird tricky stuff if he can avoid it. Unless it is something that is still simple at high levels but manageable to grow into. He has poor retention in lots of rules so complexity is probably bad.
Thanks for your help!
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Id suggest a Paladin with the Divine Hunter archetype and a single level dip into Gunslinger with the Mysterious Stranger archetype. Mysterious Stranger will allow for free gun skill and a great grit ability that ups his damage that is cha based and his grit will run off cha instead of wis. Divine hunter will give him Precise shot for free and great burst because of Smite Evil along with all the other goodies paladin gets.
Str 10 (-2 Racial) = 08
Dex 16 (+2 Racial) = 18
Con 10 = 10
Int 08 = 08
Wis 10 = 10
Cha 18 (+2 Racial) = 20
G01 Point-Blank Shot
P02 Precise Shot
P03 Rapid Reload
P04
P05 Deadly Aim
P06
P07 Reckless Aim
P08
P09 Rapid Shot
P10
P11 Clustered Shots
P12
This is a pretty simple build, focused pretty much entirely on the crossbow. Use the Fighter Crossbowman archetype from APG. Make sure Dex is 20.
Level 1: Take Rapid Reload and Point Blank Shot. This will let you move to within 30 feet, load, and take a shot with a light crossbow. Or load, shoot from within 30 feet, then move back.
Level 2: Take Weapon Focus (Light Crossbow) as the bonus feat.
Level 3: Take Rapid shot as the normal feat.
Level 4: Take Weapon specialization (light crossbow) as the bonus feat.
Level 5: Take Crossbow Mastery as the normal feat.
Level 6: Retrain weapon focus (Light crossbow) from Level 2 into Weapon Focus (Heavy Crossbow) and take Weapon Specialization (Heavy crossbow) as the new bonus feat, unless you've found a really nice magic light crossbow you want to use. In that case, take Precise Shot as the bonus feat.
Level 7: Take Precise Shot or Manyshot as desired.
Level 8: retrain Weapon Specialization (light crossbow) from Level 4 into Greater Weapon Focus (heavy crossbow) unless you stuck with a light crossbow, in which case GWF(light crossbow).
It should be pretty clear where to go from there. Get some Clustered Shots, Deadly Aim in there, Penetrating Strike when appropriate, and so on. Damage reduction is the ranged-weapon specialist's worst stumbling block, but those will help take care of it.
Going Fighter is strictly easier than going Rogue because Ranged Sneak Attacks are hard to pull off; the easiest way I can think of to do it is to grab Dazzling Display, intimidate the heck out of your enemies, and then use Shatter Defenses to render your target flat-footed against your attacks. It is possible, but feat intensive and requires that you have a BAB of +6 (or 8th level Rogue).
Going Crossbow is much easier than going Archer. Archers rely much more on having a Strength score because of Composite Longbows. If you're going Rogue, you won't even be proficient with bows if I recall correctly because they're martial weapons (its 3:00am here and I could be wrong, however. :) ).
I'll post some starting builds tomorrow after I get some sleep.
Well you have several options.
The best archers imo are as follows...
Fighter > Zen Archer Monk > Ranger > Paladin > Everything else
If he doesn't want to deal with spells or pets then Ranger and Paladin are out. The -2 Str is not a real deal breaker with fighter considering your using a 25 point buy. Below is a 25 point buy with the racial modifiers added in. And this is far from optimized.
STR: 14 DEX: 18 CON: 14 INT: 10 WIS: 12 CHA: 10
You could really drump CHA and INT/WIS if you wanted an even higher dex/str. This will be more then fine though. Add in the Weapon Training and all the feats. He will be a dps machine.
Then you have Zen Archer Monk. It does almost as much if not more damage then a Fighter. It is a bit more MAD but can still work. The trade off is the extra utility and mobility that the Monk provides. The monk steadly gets free feats and can use flurry and his unarmed damage with his bow. Its a solid choice. Below is a sample starting point up to 3rd level (when he starts using Wisdom instead of Dex to hit). Dex is still important though for Combat Reflexes and AC.
Kitsune Zen Archer 3
Ability Scores (25 Point Buy): STR: 14 DEX: 16 CON: 12 INT: 10 WIS: 16 CHA: 10
Feats
1 Combat Reflexes, Precise Shot (bonus)
2 Rapid Shot (bonus), Weapon Focus (longbow) (bonus)
3 Deadly Aim
Thanks for all the responses guys. If you have any more builds or suggestions, I/we are eager to hear them. I will forward this thread to the game master and the player so they can read them.
One specific question (from Paladin of Baha-who's post): what is the deal with retraining weapon specializations? Is that RAW/official or just a house rule? We dont really have anybody in our group who plays straight fighters, so I am pretty ignorant on several mertial rules.
Thanks!
Thanks for all the responses guys. If you have any more builds or suggestions, I/we are eager to hear them. I will forward this thread to the game master and the player so they can read them.
One specific question (from Paladin of Baha-who's post): what is the deal with retraining weapon specializations? Is that RAW/official or just a house rule? We dont really have anybody in our group who plays straight fighters, so I am pretty ignorant on several mertial rules.
Thanks!
There are two options for retraining.
The first is a Fighter class feature. It works like a sorcerer picking new spells; every so often you can pick a fighter bonus feat that you possess and exchange it for another fighter bonus feat as long as it doesn't make any of your previous choices illegal. You can read more about it under the Fighter's bonus feat class feature. Its an often forgotten special rule that all fighters possess.
The second option was just printed in Ultimate Campaign. You can spend downtime and money retraining a feat. Its not super expensive, but it takes about a week to do it and you need to find a teacher that has the feat that you want to switch to. You can read more about this in Chapter 2 of Ultimate Campaign.
Oh wow. I hadnt even heard of Ultimate Campaign. The last one I knew about and bought was the one with the NPCs of all classes and levels 1-20. And before that the advanced guide. I guess I need to find the page on this site that lists new and upcoming books so I dont miss any. :)
Thanks!
Okay, here's some quick build ideas for the Fighter and the Rogue. I'm going to assume that as a new player, your PC doesn't want the complexity of multiclassing.
Rogue
Archetypes: Scout / Thug
01 — Frightening, Point-Blank Shot, Sneak Attack +1d6
02 — Evasion, Weapon Training (light crossbow)
03 — Brutal Beating, Precise Shot, Sneak Attack +2d6
04 — Scout's Charge, Sniper's Eye
05 — Rapid Reload (light crossbow), Sneak Attack +3d6
06 — Rogue Talent (choice)
07 — Dazzling Display, Sneak Attack +4d6
08 — Combat Trick (Shatter Defenses), Skirmisher
09 — Rapid Shot, Sneak Attack +5d6
10 — Advanced Talents, Feat (Crossbow Mastery)
Okay, so I only did the first 10 levels because honestly, the core build comes together at 9th level. Before then, pulling off ranged sneak attack is tricky. The strengths of this build are that it capitalizes on both of the Kitsune's ability bonuses while ignoring its weakness; Strength does not matter to a Crossbowman. Unless he acts first, your player is not going to get to sneak attack often until 8th level, when worlds open up for him.
Because of this, he's going to want to pick the Reactionary trait to gain a +2 bonus to his initiative in addition to what I assume will be a very high Dexterity score; he wants to go first. He is also going to want ambush scenarios, but you must remember that his foe must be within 30 feet for him to pull this attack off. Your player is good at Intimidating his opponents right from 1st level; Frightening allows him to increase the duration of the shaken debuff by 1 extra round and if he gets at least 3 rounds of shaken, he can force his enemies to flee from him via the frightened condition if he wishes instead. At 3rd level, he gets Brutal Beating which allows him to further debuff foes with the sickened condition for a total of –4 to most stats; unlike shaken, sickened will rely on his sneak attacks, however.
Scout's Charge is not going to be very useful to the PC, so I don't recommend going on it for sneak attacks. He's not going to want to get into melee combat anyway, and its sort of a wasted ability waiting for bigger and better things. At 6th level he gets his choice of a rogue talent; I didn't want to make any decisions that weren't vital to the build, but I would recommend Finesse Rogue so when he wears his Spiked Gauntlet (ALWAYS have one of these on as an archer / crossbowman) he can use his much better Dexterity score to hit his enemies. Plus with Weapon Finesse, you could theoretically make use of Scout's Charge by charging up to someone and punching them in the face for sneak attack damage; that could be effective in a last-ditch scenario.
The build magically comes together at 8th level when you meet the prerequisites for Shatter Defenses and gain the Skirmisher ability. With these abilities, you can automatically sneak attack anyone that is suffering from a fear condition or anyone that you attack after moving at least 10 feet. You're going to be relying on Shatter Defenses. Your PC will be able to sneak attack most things, but he won't be able to get a full attack sneak attack on his enemies except when using Shatter Defenses; against foes that are immune to fear, his damage is going to be noticeably different, but this is the point where the build finally comes together. 9th level gives you more attacks from Rapid Shot and after that your player is free to focus on whatever he wishes; I personally recommend going for Dodge, Mobility, and Shot on the Run to compliment the skirmishing abilities, but really the choice is all on him after he gets everything he needs after 9th level.
Fighter
Archetypes: Crossbowman
01 — Bonus Feat (Precise Shot), Point-Blank Shot
02 — Rapid Shot
03 — Deadshot, Rapid Reload (heavy crossbow)
04 — Crossbow Mastery
05 — Crossbow Expert, Weapon Focus (crossbow)
06 — Weapon Specialization (crossbow)
07 — Improved Deadshot, Feat (your choice)
08 — Bonus Feat (your choice)
09 — Quick Sniper Feat (your choice)
10 — Bonus Feat (your choice)
The biggest advantage to the Fighter is that you get enough feats to round out the crossbow much faster than you would as a rogue; you have all of the essential feats by 4th level. The fighter doesn't rely on neat little tricks like Sneak Attack to deal damage with his crossbow; he just shoots like a boss, and unlike the rogue he has a much smaller chance of missing because of his superior attack bonus.
On the other hand, the Fighter is extremely straight-forward in what he does. He doesn't have any neat tricks; he loads his crossbow and he shoots them down. That's it. However, after 7th level your PC can start selecting options like Shot on the Run much faster than the Rogue ever could. He can also pick up some of the weirder feats, like Prone Shooter or maybe even grab some of the static stat boosting feats like Lightning Reflexes or Improved Initiative.
Overall, which option your PC goes for needs to be a mix of two thing;s first, his or her skill level. A very new player is going to struggle with the rogue, its harder to play right while the fighter is very straight-forward and offers less customization. On the other hand, a new player that likes the sound of being sneaky, having options, and rolling a lot of dice is going to prefer the rogue. And that's what it comes down to, the fighter may win out in damage statistically speaking, but rolling a bunch of d6s for sneak attack is a VERY fun feeling! If it were me, I'd probably pick the rogue build but I enjoy debuffing my enemies.
Hope this helped you out!
Hey thanks so much. I appreciate both builds. I like the fighter one more, and the player may as well, simply because tracking debuffs could/may slow things down. But both look good. We appreciate it!
Hey thanks so much. I appreciate both builds. I like the fighter one more, and the player may as well, simply because tracking debuffs could/may slow things down. But both look good. We appreciate it!
I play a Samurai who uses a similar build to the crossbow rogue I gave you. Its not very difficult to track at all, especially if you splurge on a few extra bucks to pick up the Condition Cards deck from Paizo.
That said, the challenge of the rogue is that it requires one to know how to be opportunistic. You need to strike at the perfect moment, especially before you get your Stealth-based abilities.
So we are about to make this character. Sorry for the necro response. But the player wants to go with Alexander's crossbowman fighter build at the bottom.
And I am wondering, does the damage just come from the feats, base weapon damage, and weapon enchantment? I mean, since str does not add damage.
He is going with Str 10, dex 19, con 16, int 12, wis 10, cha 10.
Thanks!
You don't need a Con that high, especially for a ranged character. Dropping Con to 14 would allow you do bump Wisdom to a 14, bumping up Will saves (the fighters biggest weakness), as well as Perception (always important).
Note that a lot of the features of the Crossbow fighter archetype involve readied actions. The downside being that that means that you gain none of the benefits when using a standard full-attack action, which you'll be able to do once Crossbow Mastery is obtained, allowing the fighter to shoot a crossbow as fast as a normal archer can shoot a bow.
I personally find the archetype to be quite weak, especially in comparison to the Archer archetype, which adds all sorts of useful things. If possible, I'd try to talk the GM into letting the Archer archetype work for crossbows. Otherwise, I think you'd get better mileage out of vanilla fighter with the right feats.
As for damage, the majority of the static damage modifiers will come from Weapon Training, Deadly Aim, and Weapon Specialization, on top of weapon enhancement bonuses.