Gravity Bow + Reduce Person

[Jacob Saltband]

If you cast gravity bow then cast reduce person on yourself the arrow would still do 2d6 after it leaves the bow right?

[Writer]

Yes, yes it does

[Drejk]

Quote:

Melee and projectile weapons deal less damage. Other magical properties are not affected by this spell. Any reduced item that leaves the reduced creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them).

The size of the weapon that fired projectile determines the damage, not the size of the projectile so it will inflict 1d8.

[Writer]

That seems odd. Why don't projectile weapons do more damage when Enlarged then?

[Cakeking]

they don't?

[Nefreet]

Reduce Person and Enlarge Person do indeed work differently.

A medium longbow that normally deals 1d8 damage, wielded by a medium creature, who casts Reduce Person and then Gravity Bow, deals only 1d8 damage.

The same longbow wielded by the same creature who casts Enlarge Person and Gravity Bow would deal 2d6 damage (and not the 3d6 for a huge-sized arrow).

Yes, it's wonky.

[Jacob Saltband]

Ok lets look at the two spells to see how they work.

Reduce Person: this is the part that talks about weapons held.

Melee and projectile weapons deal less damage. Other magical properties are not affected by this spell. Any reduced item that leaves the reduced creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them).

Gravity Bow:

Gravity bow significantly increases the weight and density of arrows or bolts fired from your bow or crossbow the instant before they strike their target and then return them to normal a few moments later. Any arrow fired from a bow or crossbow you are carrying when the spell is cast deals damage as if one size larger than it actually is. For instance, an arrow fired from a Medium longbow normally deals 1d8 points of damage, but it would instead deal 2d6 points of damage if fired from a gravity bow (see table on this page for associated increase/decrease in damage due to size change). Only you can benefit from this spell. If anyone else uses your bow to make an attack the arrows deal damage as normal for their size.

Looking at the bold parts, it seems to me they should work fine together so that you will do the larger damage.

[Drejk]

Jacob Saltband wrote:

Looking at the bold parts, it seems to me they should work fine together so that you will do the larger damage.

1d8 is larger damage in case of longbow wielding medium creature reduced to small.

Medium longbow: 1d8, increased by gravity bow to 2d6.
Small longbow: 1d6, increased by gravity bow to 1d8.

[Artanthos]

Drejk wrote:

The size of the weapon that fired projectile determines the damage, not the size of the projectile so it will inflict 1d8.

If only that rule were consistently applied. It is not.

[Writer]

So, I'm guessing Paizo really hates archers or what? It seems like the Enlarge/Reduce Person spells are meant for melee/throwers only : / If only it made more sense/was more consistent. Heck, I'd be happy if at least a decent explanation was given but that's missing too : /

[Kudaku]

Writer wrote:

So, I'm guessing Paizo really hates archers or what? It seems like the Enlarge/Reduce Person spells are meant for melee/throwers only : / If only it made more sense/was more consistent. Heck, I'd be happy if at least a decent explanation was given but that's missing too : /

Not to nitpick, but I'd argue that Paizo has been pretty damn nice to archers overall. Archer builds are very powerful in PF.

[Writer]

Kudaku wrote:

Writer wrote:

So, I'm guessing Paizo really hates archers or what? It seems like the Enlarge/Reduce Person spells are meant for melee/throwers only : / If only it made more sense/was more consistent. Heck, I'd be happy if at least a decent explanation was given but that's missing too : /

Not to nitpick, but I'd argue that Paizo has been pretty damn nice to archers overall. Archer builds are very powerful in PF.

Meh, if I can say it, someone else will hate on it. I'm not going to stay here while yet more people give me shit for everything I say. Enlarge person benefits most melee's, so why Reduce Person doesn't benefit any archers is beyond me. Everyone I play with will hand-wave this shit so at least I won't have to worry about it, as to my groups it seems like an obvious design flaw. As for everyone else, it's your game, mess with it how you want.

Peace, all

[Kudaku]

Writer wrote:

Meh, if I can say it, someone else will hate on it. I'm not going to stay here while yet more people give me s*&& for everything I say. Enlarge person benefits most melee's, so why Reduce Person doesn't benefit any archers is beyond me. Everyone I play with will hand-wave this s~~% so at least I won't have to worry about it, as to my groups it seems like an obvious design flaw. As for everyone else, it's your game, mess with it how you want.

Peace, all

Didn't mean to hate in any way, manner, or form - just saying that archer builds get a lot of love in Pathfinder. Furthermore, I'd say there is a difference between "people giving you s*&&" and people (in the Rules Questions forum, no less) pointing out in a reasonable manner that your statement is wrong according to the rules.

[Bigdaddyjug]

If you want to use enlarge person and gravity bow together, just carry a quiver of large arrows with you. Then, when you cast enlarge person and gravity bow you fire the large arrows and your arrows do 3d6 damage. A quiver of large cold iron arrows (you do use nothing but cold iron arrows, right?) only costs 4g and weighs 6 lbs. IT's not like you're going to be using the enlarge person/gravity bow combination every fight, so at lower levels, a quiver of arrows will last you a few fights.

[Reecy]

There is another Issue with this Combo that should be pointed out...

Str is reduced or Increased...

So If you have Comp bow you would start taking negatives to fire it.

But lets say you an Adaptive Bow.... This would make this combo work pretty well if you were using the Enlarge ability... Because the Str Bonus goes up and the bow will fire accordingly...

So if you are doing this for accuracy and harder to hit thats cool or even sniping if your a rogue

But if you are doing it to hit harder you want to go with enlarge and consider carrying 2 different bows with ya.

[Drejk]

Artanthos wrote:

Drejk wrote:

The size of the weapon that fired projectile determines the damage, not the size of the projectile so it will inflict 1d8.

If only that rule were consistently applied. It is not.

You falsely take this for a general rule while it is not. It's specific rule of reduce person spell. From the existing rules it can be concluded that general implicit (but not explicit) rule would be that when the projectiles change their size during the firing, the damage roll uses the damage dice of the smaller of the sizes involved.

[Writer]

Kudaku wrote:

Writer wrote:

Meh, if I can say it, someone else will hate on it. I'm not going to stay here while yet more people give me s*&& for everything I say. Enlarge person benefits most melee's, so why Reduce Person doesn't benefit any archers is beyond me. Everyone I play with will hand-wave this s~~% so at least I won't have to worry about it, as to my groups it seems like an obvious design flaw. As for everyone else, it's your game, mess with it how you want.

Peace, all

Didn't mean to hate in any way, manner, or form - just saying that archer builds get a lot of love in Pathfinder. Furthermore, I'd say there is a difference between "people giving you s*&&" and people (in the Rules Questions forum, no less) pointing out in a reasonable manner that your statement is wrong according to the rules.

I'm not arguing with Drejk's correction to my statement. Right is right and wrong is wrong, but so long as the correct rule is made known, it's all good. What does upset me is how you're correcting my opinion. Case in point. As if I need my personal opinions corrected, and least of all by some random strangers on an internet message-board.

If you (or anyone else) wants to press this issue or have any further problems with my personal opinions PM me and discuss it in private. Leave such arguments off the Rules Board, and don't derail threads further because you've got problems with what my preferences are.

Yes, my initial response was incorrect. I was unfamiliar with the Reduce Person spell, and answered on the understanding that Reduce Person was the opposite of Enlarge Person, which I know quite well. I apologize for my faulty interpretation of the rules, but my questions concerning why Reduce and Enlarge person are not true direct opposites of one another still stands, as does my opinion that this is a design flaw that seems to have no other purpose than to (blatancy warning) screw archers.

[Reecy]

Hey Writer, everyone makes mistakes and heck I was not familiar with reduce Person I thought they were worded the same... It was not until this thread that I actually looked at it.

It really is not a flaw and they applied the physics properly. But rather than get into a debate about it you are welcome to your opinion but archers have gotten a lot of love in Pathfinder compared to 3.5.

[Claxon]

Gravity bow was created to be a substitute for Enlarge Person. Yes, enlarge person favors melee. It's supposed to. Gravity Bow favors ranged attacks, as its supposed to. Easily stacking them would be too good.

Take your cookie and enjoy it.

[Reecy]

Yeah but Combining the 2 with the STR COMP bow can give you extra UMP and there is your cake to go with your Cookie!

:P

[Writer]

Yea, I know archers are much better off in Pathfinder than in 3.5. I just would have liked to hear Paizo's reasoning, as I'm borderline OCD when it comes to rules and spells that oppose one another (Haste vs Slow, Inflict vs Cure, and Enlarge vs Reduce)

[Kudaku]

Writer wrote:

I'm not arguing with Drejk's correction to my statement. Right is right and wrong is wrong, but so long as the correct rule is made known, it's all good. What does upset me is how you're correcting my opinion. Case in point. As if I need my personal opinions corrected, and least of all by some random strangers on an internet message-board.

If you (or anyone else) wants to press this issue or have any further problems with my personal opinions PM me and discuss it in private. Leave such arguments off the Rules Board, and don't derail threads further because you've got problems with what my preferences are.

I assumed you meant Drejk's correction since you referred to "yet more people", which I took to mean multiple people. If you only have issues with my post, fair enough - let me reply in kind:

You certainly have every right to state your opinion on the forums, but that's a two way street - I have the right to reply to that opinion. If you don't want other people to comment or to debate your opinions, I'd advice you to keep said opinions to yourself.

That having been said, I feel no need to press anything. I simply posted a reply to a statement that I consider erroneous. Other people can and will read this thread and I'd rather not let an opinion I consider utterly wrong stand unopposed.

Finally, I'd consider making a sweeping statement regarding Paizo's view on a combat style based on the interpretation of a single spell somewhat narrow-minded.

The one thing I do agree with is that there's no need to continue this discussion on the Rules board, so I'll leave it at this. Feel free to send me a PM if you want to discuss your borderline OCD regarding spell rulings or how Paizo hates archers - I'm sure it'll be a rousing discussion :)

[shroudb]

reduce person, as it clearly says in it's spell description, changes the damage for projectile weapons and melee weapons one size down. it doesn't change it for thrown weapons (explicitly says so).

the reason imo, is (strangly since it's one of the few times it is used) physics.

a thrown weapon does damage due it's mass and the acceleration granted during it's flight and said mass. since all projectiles (thrown and arrows) return to their proper size when fired/thrown then the damage is for it's normal size correctly. The penalty for you being small and having less strength is already factored in the -2str from the reduce person which translates into -1 damage on the thrown weapons.

on the other hand, arrows, bolts and etc do damage depending on the BOW, not on the arrow. If you try to shoot a huge arrow from a normal bow, the odds are it won't fly at all, let alone do more damage. Similary, the spell that enhances the damage for the arrows, is gravity BOW, not gravity ARROWS. It makes your BOW shoot things harder. No matter how large the projectile becomes on it's way to the target, the force is from the string, and since the string, and the pull of the bow remains unchanged, so does the damage.

The same principle is all over the place, compocite bows and etc.

for some strange reason, it's one of the few rules of this game that actually makes sense physics-wise (at least imo)

[Bigdaddyjug]

Oh my god, I showed you how to easily combine enlarge person and gravity bow and you're still complaining that it's too difficult?

Step 1: buy quiver of large arrows
Step 2: put quiver of large arrows on ground
Step 3: cast enlarge person and gravity bow
Step 4: pick up quiver of large arrows
Step 5: fire large arrows from now large and gravitous bow to do 3d6 damage per arrow